EV Charge Tariffs - Your opinion/experience of best company/rate to use

niktheguru

[Deleted User] said:

If I was asked to pay £1300 for 350kW charging then the first question that I would be asking myself is ‘how often am I going to use it’? I now own an EV with a range of 290 miles. I suspect that over 98% of my charging is done at home. On the occasions that I have needed a rapid (50kW) charging in the past, a 40 minute break in the journey hasn’t been a concern and it has added c.100 miles to my car’s range.

In sum, unless I was a travelling salesman I wouldn’t pay such a high premium for what is just an expensive convenience. 

It’s not 1300 for 350kw charging though dolor. Dc charging is different to ac charging. He’s paying 1300 for the convenience of halving the time of his home charging at home (ac)
For most people this is not necessary as you don’t always plug in at empty and can do little charges regularly. But may be convenient for this that do long trips and as battery sizes get bigger and bigger a 7kw per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery. Can’t say I’d personally pay 1300 for the convenience, but it’s good that’s an option. This is the main problem with Volkswagen and audis, everything is a pricey option and their base models are void of a lot.

I know you’ve already ordered jumerah, but next time in for an Audi try drivethedeal.com. They get massive discounts on new audis, they’re a broker who refer you to an official dealer.

Gerry1

niktheguru said:

and as battery sizes get bigger and bigger a 7kw per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Sorry to nag, but those units are still wrong, I'm afraid !

A 7kW charger is a 7kW charger.  A device's maximum rating doesn't depend on time, just like a 100W bulb is always a 100W bulb whether its on for 7 minutes, 7 hours or even when it's switched off.

A 7kWh/h per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Or to put it in a more meaningful way, 'A 7kW charge for 7 hours won’t fill the battery if its capacity is greater than 49kWh.'

jumeriah64

niktheguru said:

Dolor said:

If I was asked to pay £1300 for 350kW charging then the first question that I would be asking myself is ‘how often am I going to use it’? I now own an EV with a range of 290 miles. I suspect that over 98% of my charging is done at home. On the occasions that I have needed a rapid (50kW) charging in the past, a 40 minute break in the journey hasn’t been a concern and it has added c.100 miles to my car’s range.

In sum, unless I was a travelling salesman I wouldn’t pay such a high premium for what is just an expensive convenience. 

It’s not 1300 for 350kw charging though dolor. Dc charging is different to ac charging. He’s paying 1300 for the convenience of halving the time of his home charging at home (ac)
For most people this is not necessary as you don’t always plug in at empty and can do little charges regularly. But may be convenient for this that do long trips and as battery sizes get bigger and bigger a 7kw per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery. Can’t say I’d personally pay 1300 for the convenience, but it’s good that’s an option. This is the main problem with Volkswagen and audis, everything is a pricey option and their base models are void of a lot.

I know you’ve already ordered jumerah, but next time in for an Audi try drivethedeal.com. They get massive discounts on new audis, they’re a broker who refer you to an official dealer.

Good advice Nik.

Discounts were zero. Demand for the GT was so mad high that it turned out that no-one had any allocation.

There were some frustrations early on in the ordering cycle and I pulled out and went to loads of brokers, and some larger dealers. They all opened with 'yeah leave with us, we are the boys to talk to' but within usually 2 hours whimpered back going ..... 'er, we can't touch that price and indeed we can't beat the lead time'. |That said the lead time was pushed back significantly shortly after. Not a huge point for me. 

I think I managed get about 4-5% off list in the end. Ironically I never asked for it but I suspect it fitted some model more to the dealers benefit than mine. I'm told by folsk in that world (after the event) that this was actually quite good. It didn't feel like it. Then again, I've never bought a new car having been fortunate enough to have spent most of my adult life with company cars until a few years back when the tax regs meant anything worth having cost too much.

I would think (far from expert) but the Korean manufacturers will take 800v and 22kw AC charging and run with it. Then come V.3 type cars in maybe 3 years, it will become cheap and then absorbed into mainstream inclusive pricing. 

Have to say drivethedeal was not one of those I tried. I will note that in case I go with Audi again on replacement. I suspect again that market will be hugely different come that time. And the Polestar Precept does call to me. Making up lost time for "not really being a car guy" :-)

jumeriah64

Gerry1 said:

niktheguru said:

and as battery sizes get bigger and bigger a 7kw per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Sorry to nag, but those units are still wrong, I'm afraid !

A 7kW charger is a 7kW charger.  A device's maximum rating doesn't depend on time, just like a 100W bulb is always a 100W bulb whether its on for 7 minutes, 7 hours or even when it's switched off.

A 7kWh/h per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Or to put it in a more meaningful way, 'A 7kW charge for 7 hours won’t fill the battery if its capacity is greater than 49kWh.'

I wish my maths were better Gerry to discuss that one with you. Nik and dolor are probably the guys. Although I'm getting there slowly.

I had an Audi page open earlier and I 'think' the 22kw AC system allows charge (for that model 94.3kw battery) in under 4 hours. That said I can't find the page to hand. Will find and post an accurate figure.

[Deleted User]

My knowledge of 22kW charging is limited to the fact I have an EV which charges at a rate of 11kWs when connected to a 22kW charging point. I have just read this on a motoring website:

Quote: According to Audi, the standard Mode 3 cable, with which all e-tron models can charge on public pillars, has already been converted to 22 kW charging power. The surcharge for the second onboard charger is 1,623.03 euros. The second onboard charger only comes in conjunction with a second charging port on the passenger side which adds 438.65 euros for the latter to the bill. Unquote 

How would this work with a single 22kW EVSE such as an Anderson or Zappi? If true, then 2 EVSEs are required each supplying 11kWs to two onboard chargers.

niktheguru

Gerry1 said:

niktheguru said:

and as battery sizes get bigger and bigger a 7kw per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Sorry to nag, but those units are still wrong, I'm afraid !

A 7kW charger is a 7kW charger.  A device's maximum rating doesn't depend on time, just like a 100W bulb is always a 100W bulb whether its on for 7 minutes, 7 hours or even when it's switched off.

A 7kWh/h per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Or to put it in a more meaningful way, 'A 7kW charge for 7 hours won’t fill the battery if its capacity is greater than 49kWh.'

I’m not going to argue with the oracle that is Gerry, but he knows what I was getting at. The nomenclature is one thing. But to us electric drivers the end game is how quickly will my battery get to full.

if you have a 70kW battery a 7kW charging point will take min 10 hours to charge the battery to full (at 7kW added to the battery in an hour), if you have a 22kW charger it will take min 3hr11mins. Obviously the rate of charging also depends on other factors such as how warm the battery is, it’s state of charge, how old the battery is etc.

jumeriah64

niktheguru said:

Gerry1 said:

niktheguru said:

and as battery sizes get bigger and bigger a 7kw per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Sorry to nag, but those units are still wrong, I'm afraid !

A 7kW charger is a 7kW charger.  A device's maximum rating doesn't depend on time, just like a 100W bulb is always a 100W bulb whether its on for 7 minutes, 7 hours or even when it's switched off.

A 7kWh/h per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Or to put it in a more meaningful way, 'A 7kW charge for 7 hours won’t fill the battery if its capacity is greater than 49kWh.'

I’m not going to argue with the oracle that is Gerry, but he knows what I was getting at. The nomenclature is one thing. But to us electric drivers the end game is how quickly will my battery get to full.

if you have a 70kW battery a 7kW charging point will take min 10 hours to charge the battery to full (at 7kW added to the battery in an hour), if you have a 22kW charger it will take min 3hr11mins. Obviously the rate of charging also depends on other factors such as how warm the battery is, it’s state of charge, how old the battery is etc.

Speed is a factor for me for sure. Think I read on the Octopus web site (but still reading mind) that the Go tariff allows off peak EV charing between 1.00 and 4.00 am? .... so a 22kw charge for a daily used mid/longer range car sounds about right I think.

And also my thinking was a bit future based. At some point there is likely be a second EV on the driveway so the 22kw config allows for that.

But entirely agree with others that if cost benefit were the only metric then it might not be an immediately good call.

I think I read that battery temp conditioning was something that has been into the Ionic and GT. What precisely that means I don't know. May have a read. 

Blimey the learning rate on this subject is exponential. But still very interesting.

jumeriah64

Dolor said:

My knowledge of 22kW charging is limited to the fact I have an EV which charges at a rate of 11kWs when connected to a 22kW charging point. I have just read this on a motoring website:

Quote: According to Audi, the standard Mode 3 cable, with which all e-tron models can charge on public pillars, has already been converted to 22 kW charging power. The surcharge for the second onboard charger is 1,623.03 euros. The second onboard charger only comes in conjunction with a second charging port on the passenger side which adds 438.65 euros for the latter to the bill. Unquote 

How would this work with a single 22kW EVSE such as an Anderson or Zappi? If true, then 2 EVSEs are required each supplying 11kWs to two onboard chargers.

Not entirely sure dolor .... Audi did call back earlier but I missed the call. There is an email I've just seen so will take a look and post back.

Looks like a pricey answer is there, but is a damned messy business for sure. This should be much simpler .... as a set of options, regardless of the actual choice, reasoning and price. 

niktheguru

jumeriah64 said:

Speed is a factor for me for sure. Think I read on the Octopus web site (but still reading mind) that the Go tariff allows off peak EV charing between 1.00 and 4.00 am? .... so a 22kw charge for a daily used mid/longer range car sounds about right I think.

And also my thinking was a bit future based. At some point there is likely be a second EV on the driveway so the 22kw config allows for that.

But entirely agree with others that if cost benefit were the only metric then it might not be an immediately good call.

I think I read that battery temp conditioning was something that has been into the Ionic and GT. What precisely that means I don't know. May have a read. 

Blimey the learning rate on this subject is exponential. But still very interesting.

The battery temp conditioning is an option on the ioniq 5, it just helps with speeding up charging.

In terms of octopus. Go Faster has a 5 hr tariff at 5.5p, that for me is the sweet spot for ev charging.

Also remember you won't usually be charging from complete empty to full. Typically you'll just connect it to charge when you get home, or a few times a week, so you don't really need a 22kw charger at the moment, but you're right it may well be worth it for the future.

Gerry1

niktheguru said:

Gerry1 said:

niktheguru said:

and as battery sizes get bigger and bigger a 7kw per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Sorry to nag, but those units are still wrong, I'm afraid !

A 7kW charger is a 7kW charger.  A device's maximum rating doesn't depend on time, just like a 100W bulb is always a 100W bulb whether its on for 7 minutes, 7 hours or even when it's switched off.

A 7kWh/h per hour charge overnight won’t fill the battery.

Or to put it in a more meaningful way, 'A 7kW charge for 7 hours won’t fill the battery if its capacity is greater than 49kWh.'

I’m not going to argue with the oracle that is Gerry, but he knows what I was getting at. The nomenclature is one thing. But to us electric drivers the end game is how quickly will my battery get to full.

if you have a 70kW battery a 7kW charging point will take min 10 hours to charge the battery to full (at 7kW added to the battery in an hour), if you have a 22kW charger it will take min 3hr11mins. Obviously the rate of charging also depends on other factors such as how warm the battery is, it’s state of charge, how old the battery is etc.

Yes, I guess what you meant to say, but it's not being pedantic to point out that it didn't make sense.  If you always get your units wrong the meaning can easily become (i) ambiguous at best and (ii) lead to significant confusion at worst. 

A '70kW' battery is an example of (i).  Is it a battery that can only be charged at a rate of up to 70kW, or one with a capacity to hold 70kWh of energy?  The reader has to guess, and that guess could be wrong.  You might think that you were lucky to land a job with 'A salary of £10,000' but you'd get a shock if you assumed £10,000 per month but it turned out that they meant £10,000 per year !  Ditto a software package for £25 might sound attractive, but less so it it were actually £25/month.

It's no more more difficult to understand the difference between power (kW, which is a rate), and energy (kWh, which is the total amount delivered or consumed in a given time) than between speed (miles/h) and distance (miles).  Saying 'adding 7kW' to a battery is as confusing as saying that you live 30 mph from your workplace, or that you were fined for driving 40 miles in a residential area: they're both meaningless because the units are wrong.