EV Charge Tariffs - Your opinion/experience of best company/rate to use

[Deleted User]

jumeriah64 said:

[Deleted User] said:

jumeriah64 said:

[Deleted User] said:

Look at Octopus Go/Go Faster; Good Energy and EDF EV. Your graph is pretty meaningless in that you need to work out how much of your usage you can push into the cheap Offpeak periods. The latter depends on how often you expect to charge your EV. All EVs have Fast Charge. On a 3 phase supply, the norm is 11kWs. One problem that you might face is getting a 3 phase smart meter. They are being rolled out slowly, and they are essential for time of use tariffs.

Many thanks for the quick reply Dolor. I will be reading up on those today for sure.

Short answer, I have no idea on usage or consumption car wise. Car is one of the new 800v ones, an Audi. If I read right these can (at a commercial fast charge location go from empty to near full in about 40 mins I think it was. Maybe even less.

The charging unit we have here and to be fitted shortly is a 22kw unit from Andersen. 

Ironically I'm on hold in an endless queue to OVO (25 mins and counting .....) to discuss the very point you mention .... provision of a 3-phase meter.

I don't see too much opportunity to offset a great deal of our usage into off peak periods but will look into to it for sure.

All interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing. May I ask which one you have opted for.

You are entering into a World of new terminology. I am not sure what you mean by a 800v battery. My EV has a 80kWh battery which will fast charge at 7.4/11.2kWs; rapid charge at 50kWs DC and ultra rapid charge at anything up to150kWs. My EVSE (a Zappi 2) is capable of providing a charge at 22kWs; however for AC charging (fast) the maximum charging rate is set by the car’s onboard charger (OBC). For rapid and ultra rapid DC charging, the rate of charge is controlled by the external charging point.

 PS. Near full means 80%. As the battery gets above 80% the charging rate reduces markedly to protect the EV’s battery life.  For some EVs, it can take longer to get from 80 to 100% than it does from 0 to 80%. You will also see the charging rate reduce on your home EVSE as you get closer to 100%.

Is also my understanding Dolor. 

The 800v system on the Audi will change from empty to near full (80%) in 30 minutes at a 350kw charging station. Trouble being there are few of those but I read they will start to become significantly more common the next 24 months.

I also read that Tesla will open up their charging system to the rest of us later this year. Not sure the implications of that.

You pay for convenience. The last time that I looked Ionity was charging £0.69/kWh. This makes EV charging very expensive. I find that the advantage of having a big battery is that I can make maximum use of solar or cheap charging which offsets the higher upfront cost, to a degree, of an EV.

If you are serious about PV solar then my advice would be talk to a local installer/s rather than an energy company.

niktheguru

They will become more common, but i still would not use one. Ionity charge 70p/kw for their 350kw/h chargers (unless you have a special subscription that subsidises the cost).....at that price its simply not worth it unless you just need a few kw's to get you to your destination. Unfortunately althought reasonably priced at the moment, fast ccs chargers will only get more expensive as electric adoption increases to the point where they will be as expensive to run as ICE cars.

You're already beginning to see the incentives and low costs creep up. First the EV grant has been reduced and restricted, then the EV charger grant was reduced. Londons congestion charge exemption will cease for EVs from 2025. Even taxation will increase etc etc. 

If the fast chargers are competitively priced then great. However car batteries are increasing in size. The average was 35kws up until recently. Now were're looking at between 50 and 80kws in cars. So a 73kw battery would cost £51 in an ionity charger compared to at home where I could charge it for £3.65!

(anyway thats my rant over)

Jumeriah64, if you're looking to move to octopus I would do it soon, then get them to change your meters to smart meters and move onto go faster. Some areas of the company take longer to fit smart meters than others.

In terms of the anderson, it is a beautiful charge point, but like i said isn't the best internally designed. Its basically not as good on the inside as it is on the outside, and their customer services have apparently not been the greatest when things go wrong. You can get plenty of chargers with longer tethered cables. I would advise def go tethered, its much less hassle to then plug in compared with having to get your cables out each time!

If this is your first forage into EVs i'm sure you'll love it. I need to change mine at the moment and considering the options, most likely it'll be the ioniq 5.

jumeriah64

Dolor said:

jumeriah64 said:

Dolor said:

jumeriah64 said:

Dolor said:

Look at Octopus Go/Go Faster; Good Energy and EDF EV. Your graph is pretty meaningless in that you need to work out how much of your usage you can push into the cheap Offpeak periods. The latter depends on how often you expect to charge your EV. All EVs have Fast Charge. On a 3 phase supply, the norm is 11kWs. One problem that you might face is getting a 3 phase smart meter. They are being rolled out slowly, and they are essential for time of use tariffs.

Many thanks for the quick reply Dolor. I will be reading up on those today for sure.

Short answer, I have no idea on usage or consumption car wise. Car is one of the new 800v ones, an Audi. If I read right these can (at a commercial fast charge location go from empty to near full in about 40 mins I think it was. Maybe even less.

The charging unit we have here and to be fitted shortly is a 22kw unit from Andersen. 

Ironically I'm on hold in an endless queue to OVO (25 mins and counting .....) to discuss the very point you mention .... provision of a 3-phase meter.

I don't see too much opportunity to offset a great deal of our usage into off peak periods but will look into to it for sure.

All interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing. May I ask which one you have opted for.

You are entering into a World of new terminology. I am not sure what you mean by a 800v battery. My EV has a 80kWh battery which will fast charge at 7.4/11.2kWs; rapid charge at 50kWs DC and ultra rapid charge at anything up to150kWs. My EVSE (a Zappi 2) is capable of providing a charge at 22kWs; however for AC charging (fast) the maximum charging rate is set by the car’s onboard charger (OBC). For rapid and ultra rapid DC charging, the rate of charge is controlled by the external charging point.

 PS. Near full means 80%. As the battery gets above 80% the charging rate reduces markedly to protect the EV’s battery life.  For some EVs, it can take longer to get from 80 to 100% than it does from 0 to 80%. You will also see the charging rate reduce on your home EVSE as you get closer to 100%.

Is also my understanding Dolor. 

The 800v system on the Audi will change from empty to near full (80%) in 30 minutes at a 350kw charging station. Trouble being there are few of those but I read they will start to become significantly more common the next 24 months.

I also read that Tesla will open up their charging system to the rest of us later this year. Not sure the implications of that.

You pay for convenience. The last time that I looked Ionity was charging £0.69/kWh. This makes EV charging very expensive. I find that the advantage of having a big battery is that I can make maximum use of solar or cheap charging which offsets the higher upfront cost, to a degree, of an EV.

If you are serious about PV solar then my advice would be talk to a local installer/s rather than an energy company.

Oh I am. As I mentioned a little earlier, I have ISOenergy in the loop to make assessments about solar/batteries and indeed GSHP's .... they have not come back with details for the assessment yet.

https://www.isoenergy.co.uk/

From what I read (no experience in this area, they appear be at the upper end of the spectrum knowledge and provision wise.

I'd love implement a solar/battery solution. But the reading I did tends suggest the orientation of our house doesn't lend itself well to a solar install. Let's see.

Have to confess to not knowing the Audi battery size. Just looked it up and it's 93.4kw.

At the same time I have to confess that we are not huge car users. The hope is that that will change in fact when the new car arrives. I hope so.

jumeriah64

niktheguru said:

They will become more common, but i still would not use one. Ionity charge 70p/kwh for their 350kw chargers (unless you have a special subscription that subsidises the cost).....at that price its simply not worth it unless you just need a few kw's to get you to your destination. Unfortunately althought reasonably priced at the moment, fast ccs chargers will only get more expensive as electric adoption increases to the point where they will be as expensive to run as ICE cars.

You're already beginning to see the incentives and low costs creep up. First the EV grant has been reduced and restricted, then the EV charger grant was reduced. Londons congestion charge exemption will cease for EVs from 2025. Even taxation will increase etc etc. 

If the fast chargers are competitively priced then great. However car batteries are increasing in size. The average was 35kws up until recently. Now were're looking at between 50 and 80kws in cars. So a 73kw battery would cost £51 in an ionity charger compared to at home where I could charge it for £3.65!

(anyway thats my rant over)

Jumeriah64, if you're looking to move to octopus I would do it soon, then get them to change your meters to smart meters and move onto go faster. Some areas of the company take longer to fit smart meters than others.

In terms of the anderson, it is a beautiful charge point, but like i said isn't the best internally designed. Its basically not as good on the inside as it is on the outside, and their customer services have apparently not been the greatest when things go wrong. You can get plenty of chargers with longer tethered cables. I would advise def go tethered, its much less hassle to then plug in compared with having to get your cables out each time!

If this is your first forage into EVs i'm sure you'll love it. I need to change mine at the moment and considering the options, most likely it'll be the ioniq 5.

I'm starting to feel ok about all this. :-)

Yes the negatives you mention I 100% agree and I'm already realistic to.

Deep down I still have a lot of questions about the environmental aspect. Something (non scientific) pulls me toward hydrogen conceptually for future. And currently I have a base model diesel 106 from 1995 without so much as an electric window or rear window heater. The Berners Lee CO2 model shows that to be just about the most environmentally friendly option known to man .... a 26 year old car that can still hit 60mpg and cleanly and that it's total CO2 figure netted across life cycle is amazing.

I'm definitely going to do as you mention with Octopus. The synchronisation of plan and supply / meter swap does as you say lend itself near perfectly. Tomorrow's emails and calls :-)

Yes I'm fully open minded on the Andersen. Time will tell. Support wise I've found them rather good to date .... but nothing is actually installed or working yet. Agree on the tethered option. I would struggle with the hassle as you mention.

And yes this is first footstep into EV's. I've not even test drove the GT .... the wife did. I had a broken ankle at the time. And I have to confess my first choice absolutely was the new Ioniq. I tried to place an order and get the local dealer show an interest and was totally disappointed. Yes talking to you Hyundai Shrewsbury! Very poor show. They called back a few times then just stopped .... short of taking the money! Madness. The Audi folks a mile up the road had no such qualms about taking the money!

The Ioniq is a beautiful design and actually more practical in many ways.

Petriix

I assume that your Audi can make use of the 22kW three-phase AC charger? (most EVs can't).

Looking at your electricity consumption I'd suggest that the cheapest single rate will be significantly cheaper than any EV specific tariff. Do your own calculations using an estimate for how much of your regular usage you could switch to the cheap window.

You probably have a great use case for solar, even if not ideally oriented. Probably wouldn't benefit from batteries but see how much PV you can squeeze on any part of the roof facing within 90 degrees of South. 

[Deleted User]

Petriix said:

I assume that your Audi can make use of the 22kW three-phase AC charger? (most EVs can't).

Looking at your electricity consumption I'd suggest that the cheapest single rate will be significantly cheaper than any EV specific tariff. Do your own calculations using an estimate for how much of your regular usage you could switch to the cheap window.

You probably have a great use case for solar, even if not ideally oriented. Probably wouldn't benefit from batteries but see how much PV you can squeeze on any part of the roof facing within 90 degrees of South. 

How so? Surely, 5 hours at 5.5p/kWh at a charge rate of 22kWs would fill most EV batteries from empty.

niktheguru

Petriix said:

Looking at your electricity consumption I'd suggest that the cheapest single rate will be significantly cheaper than any EV specific tariff. Do your own calculations using an estimate for how much of your regular usage you could switch to the cheap window.

Would definitely disagree with you here, as at current rates the octopus go peak rates are very competitive with the cheapest single rate tariffs. Add to that the reduction by a third in cost in the off peak 3-5 hour period, where he'll be able to charge his car he'll be saving a lot of money.

As a crude estimate he uses 33kws a day at the moment. 
Assume hes living in the south east. His cheapest unit rate will likely be symbio at 14.6p/kw. The go faster peak rate is 16.2p 
with an off peak rate of 5.5p between 8.30pm and 1.30am.....for arguments sake lets say he uses his energy equally throughout the day (i know this probably isn't the case) so out of his 33kw he uses 6.875kw in off peak and 26.125 in peak

Symbio rate: 4.81
Octopus rate: 4.60

so already saving.

Lets say for arguments sake he charges his car from 0 to 100% once in a week. Thats 73kw in off peak on top. (He may charge it more, he may charge it less)

symbio rate: £10.65
Octopus rate: £3.65

Even if he used zero energy in the off peak period except to charge his car the cost would be for 1 week

Symbio = (33 x 7) x 0.146 + (73 x 0.146) = £44.38           Average unit rate price = 14.6p/kw
Octopus = (33 x 7) x 0.162 + (73 x 0.05) =  £41.07          Average unit rate price = 13.5p/kw

In reality, the octopus go faster rate is excellent. It is beneficial for most people except if an extremely low electricity user. If you have an EV then its a no brainer. The biggest stumbling block for most is the fact you need a smart meter which many people seem to be averse to.
If you also change some of your high use habits to the low priced period e.g. washing machine, dishwasher etc you will save even more. without a huge change in lifestyle i'm realistically getting electricity for 8-10p/kw with go faster. (Though i do charge an EV, and am on their lower tariff at 14.9p peak)
When octopus change their peak prices (which they've only done once in 3 years) then it may be less competitive, but at the moment its a steal and i would urge more people to move onto it. Its probably less adopted as you just dont see it on the price comparison websites so people don't consider it.

(Note i didn't include standing charge, this is less relevant for high users, and for symbio and octopus go faster its virtually the same currently at 24p and 25p a day)

niktheguru

Petriix said:

I assume that your Audi can make use of the 22kW three-phase AC charger? (most EVs can't).

This is a very good point.

@jumeriah64 make sure you have added the factory fit option of a second on board charger to your ordered audi. If you do this you'll be able to charge at 22kw/h on your home charger. If you do not add this factory fit only option to your car the maximum rate on AC for your car will be 11kw/h (and then the whole purpose of getting a 3 phase supply is wasted....for the car at least) Its only a tiny £1300 on top. (every add on is ridiculously priced with the VAG group)
I'm sure you will have probably already thought of it and added it, but worth mentioning just in case)

Also if you are thinking of joining octopus. Audi has a special partnership with them, so if you move both energy supplies you will get a £90 bonus. This is better than their standard £50 refer a friend bonus.
The link is here: https://www.audi.co.uk/uk/web/en/electric/octopus-energy-offer.html
(before anyone starts wrongly suggesting again that i'm trying to recommend octopus just so i can get a referral bonus!)

Hope that helps

jumeriah64

Petriix said:

I assume that your Audi can make use of the 22kW three-phase AC charger? (most EVs can't).

Looking at your electricity consumption I'd suggest that the cheapest single rate will be significantly cheaper than any EV specific tariff. Do your own calculations using an estimate for how much of your regular usage you could switch to the cheap window.

You probably have a great use case for solar, even if not ideally oriented. Probably wouldn't benefit from batteries but see how much PV you can squeeze on any part of the roof facing within 90 degrees of South. 

The GT does work with the Andesen 22kw system yes and yes we are installing 3-phase as we speak. 

We are doing this not just for the GT but a GSHP installation later next year and most likely a second EV and indeed change of EV in 3 or 4 years time. I don't plan on revisiting this any time soon and would rather aim at getting it as near to perfect as I can first pass. Famous last words :-)

Here's some video about the new EV charging tech .... the Ioniq 5 is equally as good in this department. After all the boyish drudge about speed, it talks about charging at about the 2 minute mark ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq_DcqmVhNU

I'm not expert but have read a lot about 'new gen EV's such as the Ioniq 5, the GT and the Taycan and they (so the car mags mention) very much the future of EV charging mass adoption. That and the introduction of solid state batteries from VW in approx 3 years which is a lot more interesting. I suspect the GT will become very much V.2 tech at that time. 

I'd love to develop a case for the solar solution and have to say will go with it even it's marginal. I'm interested in all this stuff and it's my substitute for pub and football. I'm just waiting for these folks from ISOenergy to come back to me .... they a little slow out the blocks.

Thanks for the steer on the tariff. I have to confess to finding this stuff challenging.

jumeriah64

niktheguru said:

Petriix said:

Looking at your electricity consumption I'd suggest that the cheapest single rate will be significantly cheaper than any EV specific tariff. Do your own calculations using an estimate for how much of your regular usage you could switch to the cheap window.

Would definitely disagree with you here, as at current rates the octopus go peak rates are very competitive with the cheapest single rate tariffs. Add to that the reduction by a third in cost in the off peak 3-5 hour period, where he'll be able to charge his car he'll be saving a lot of money.

As a crude estimate he uses 33kws a day at the moment. 
Assume hes living in the south east. His cheapest unit rate will likely be symbio at 14.6p/kw. The go faster peak rate is 16.2p 
with an off peak rate of 5.5p between 8.30pm and 1.30am.....for arguments sake lets say he uses his energy equally throughout the day (i know this probably isn't the case) so out of his 33kw he uses 6.875kw in off peak and 26.125 in peak

Symbio rate: 4.81
Octopus rate: 4.60

so already saving.

Lets say for arguments sake he charges his car from 0 to 100% once in a week. Thats 73kw in off peak on top. (He may charge it more, he may charge it less)

symbio rate: £10.65
Octopus rate: £3.65

Even if he used zero energy in the off peak period except to charge his car the cost would be for 1 week

Symbio = (33 x 7) x 0.146 + (73 x 0.146) = £44.38           Average unit rate price = 14.6p/kw
Octopus = (33 x 7) x 0.162 + (73 x 0.05) =  £41.07          Average unit rate price = 13.5p/kw

In reality, the octopus go faster rate is excellent. It is beneficial for most people except if an extremely low electricity user. If you have an EV then its a no brainer. The biggest stumbling block for most is the fact you need a smart meter which many people seem to be averse to.
If you also change some of your high use habits to the low priced period e.g. washing machine, dishwasher etc you will save even more. without a huge change in lifestyle i'm realistically getting electricity for 8-10p/kw with go faster. (Though i do charge an EV, and am on their lower tariff at 14.9p peak)
When octopus change their peak prices (which they've only done once in 3 years) then it may be less competitive, but at the moment its a steal and i would urge more people to move onto it. Its probably less adopted as you just dont see it on the price comparison websites so people don't consider it.

(Note i didn't include standing charge, this is less relevant for high users, and for symbio and octopus go faster its virtually the same currently at 24p and 25p a day)

Is a very interesting analysis Nik, appreciate you taking the time. I will be reading that a good few times this afternoon (while likely on hold waiting to speak with Octopus if OVO was anything to go by yesterday).

Many thanks for taking the time with that.