My old Spinningfield case. Link included kindly by RedX .Judge ordered preliminary phone hearing

Coupon-mad

Send it to the email addresses you have all at the same time as a cc, so the court can see the other side was copied in. That is important.  Only your phone numbers email should be 'court only'.

We didn't say 'lay advocate'. No such thing and he doesn't have to ask for permission, it is his right under the Lay Representatives (Rights of Audience) order, but I guess that he is having to supply two phone numbers so had to explain who you are and what your role is.

su51_2

Coupon-mad said:

Send it to the email addresses you have all at the same time as a cc, so the court can see the other side was copied in. That is important.  Only your phone numbers email should be 'court only'.

We didn't say 'lay advocate'. No such thing and he doesn't have to ask for permission, it is his right under the Lay Representatives (Rights of Audience) order, but I guess that he is having to supply two phone numbers so had to explain who you are and what your role is.

Ok l've just sent the email (re: paragraph 8) it went at 15:53 and l have had acknowledgements from the court and Gs solics. general enquiry address but not from the individual case worker's email address that l also copied it into.
 
l need to get the phone number one sent now as must be done within five days as l'm sure you're aware and down to about seven days now.  .   So l will alter the asking of permission for me to represent, to him  'informing' them he wants me to represent him, thanks for that. l also better add my phone number as it sounds as if he can't just hand his phone over to me after saying he wants me to continue (or can he?) which is how l thought it went.   Only ever done one phone meeting and as l think l've mentioned it went horribly wrong as l'm unsure whose phoning who etc and how to phone into it etc then there was a very weak signal to contend with.  But we are going to an empty property (that l am selling atm )in a good reception area for this hearing
Thanks yet again 

Coupon-mad

Actually he could hand the phone to you or put it on loudspeaker.

su51_2

Coupon-mad said:

Actually he could hand the phone to you or put it on loudspeaker.

Oh that's good l will just send his phone number then, probably be easier than both trying dial in etc. I was just looking at some WS examples on Newbies and there's one from RobertCox999 that l'm following for layout etc and in his case he mentions they sent him a redacted landowner certificate and Gladstones sent me one of those in their WS bundle heavily redacted in fact. Should l include a comment on this as l did ask for it in my original defence so not bringing up new stuff as such. Is it still against rules for them to send this I'll scan it on here for you to have a look if you wish, 

Coupon-mad

It's not against the rules, it's just up to the Judge.  In your situation I would not try to add too much to the WS because it's being emailed late, so I think he should just get it done telling the story as I set out a few days ago.

Don't copy a long one.  I think anything more than his story and maybe proof of the job or what he does for a living to back it up might annoy the Judge. 

But a short account like I set out before, stating that none if this is news to the Claimant because he appealed with the truth and expected them to see common sense snd cancel, way back in 2019, would perhaps get the nod as a late WS.

su51_2

Coupon-mad said:

It's not against the rules, it's just up to the Judge.  In your situation I would not try to add too much to the WS because it's being emailed late, so I think he should just get it done telling the story as I set out a few days ago.

Don't copy a long one.  I think anything more than his story and maybe proof of the job or what he does for a living to back it up might annoy the Judge. 

But a short account like I set out before, stating that none if this is news to the Claimant because he appealed with the truth and expected them to see common sense snd cancel, way back in 2019, would perhaps get the nod as a late WS.

ok thanks, will get it emailed to court and Gs today after putting on here , but Gladstones say they don' t accept documents served by email so shall l just ignore that and send it by email anyway same time as court or email it to them and post copy ?.     Thank you
Here is my 2nd page of WS from my Defence, lve taken out the legal references and just excerpted the 'story' . My first page is the court no. etc etc and an index as per example WS of 999 l was using from Newbies.
 Now l'm not sure which legal references to include as my points xx02 xx03 etc to back up my double charging  argument  (l believe there's a good recent one for that but cant find it by a lady judge ?) and my quote below about 'entering into a contract must be able read it, digest it etc etc' l'm not even sure where l got it from . So not sure which case examples to reference to back up my points on signage being unfair/impossible to read without stopping etc, which is main part of my defence.  Do l reference my Defence paragraph on Beavis as a numbered evidence content.

Account of Events, quoted from my Defence:

I was driving around fruitlessly trying to find a place where my next listed maintenance job was to be carried out.

The signs were confusing, contradictory and unclear and impossible to read without stopping as they are well above the line of vision from the driving seat of a car (or small van in this case).

My Satnav had told me l had ‘reached my destination’

The signpost was also home to a ‘No Right Turn ‘ symbol immediately above the sign in question (so therefore caught my initial attention) and facing the same way (out onto the road ) rather than facing oncoming traffic so not really clear who it was aimed at.

There were no markings on the road to mark out an area the sign related to and l did not stop directly under the sign and was not blocking any entrances or exits or causing any danger to other drivers and checked for pedestrians before pulling over to ask for assistance.

This sign contains over three hundred words and symbols in various fonts and sizes, much of it in very small print, difficult to read up close, let alone standing underneath it and completely impossible from a moving vehicle. To form a contract the driver must have time to read the sign, consider and digest the contract and decide whether to accept or not.

The penalty for breach of this ‘contract’ is over halfway down the sign in the fifth paragraph and in small print only ten percent the size of the heading and followed by the words: ‘By entering or remaining on this land you agree to abide by all the terms and conditions’ in the same small font.

Given my impossible conundrum that l had to stop to read the sign, which turned out to contain Terms and Conditions that I could not stop without being in breach of said T&Cs and that l had apparently agreed to just by virtue of being there, l dispute that this sign could be said to have entered me into a contract.

To form a contract the driver must have time to read the sign, consider and digest the contract and decide whether to accept or not.

I have also repeatedly asked for copies of all correspondence between myself, the claimant and their solicitors and all other parties involved. The claimant and their solicitors have both referred me to the other one (even though l had already asked the other party) and said the other party owns the rights to the data and vice versa. I feel this whole process has been made unnecessarily difficult and complicated. In one instance ES Parking answered my formal letter (requesting more information) by email which l missed as was not expecting it to come through that medium. I feel it is bad practice or at best certainly not normal practice to answer a formal letter by email, surely it should be answered in like kind.

Neither of them has produced any original parking charge notice sent directly to me, the only notice l have is the one passed to me by my employer and addressed to them as the Registered Keepers of the vehicle. This despite my employers giving them my details as the driver it seems ES Parking did not then send a Notice to Driver to me personally, but relied on the notice being passed to me by the Registered Keepers ,with the advice ‘just to appeal it’

Coupon-mad

Remove anything that suggests he saw the sign, because he didn't.  For example this isn't needed and suggests he saw it:

The signs were confusing, contradictory and unclear and impossible to read without stopping as they are well above the line of vision from the driving seat of a car (or small van in this case).

He should clearly state that NO signs were seen and when a person pulls over in the estate you are authorised to be working at to ask for directions, you don't expect a random unidentified and unseen person to take covert photos with an iphone, then upload them to a company the driver has never heard of, let alone 'agreed parking terms'.

£100 for stopping to ask for directions is fully distinguished from the clear signs and undenied contract in ParkingEye v Beavis and clearly has no legitimate interest to ssve it from being an unconscionable penalty.

The Claimant's behaviour is no better than when they were notorious rogue clampers before that activity became a criminal offence.  It is exactly this sort of predatory rogue conduct that the Government will stamp out with the new law being finalised in 2022: the Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019, which has published a draft including ten minutes consideration period to read signage and decide whether to stay or leave.  The driver left as soon as the person on foot warned them about the rogue ticketing operation.

su51_2

Coupon-mad said:

Remove anything that suggests he saw the sign, because he didn't.  For example this isn't needed and suggests he saw it:

The signs were confusing, contradictory and unclear and impossible to read without stopping as they are well above the line of vision from the driving seat of a car (or small van in this case).

He should clearly state that NO signs were seen and when a person pulls over in the estate you are authorised to be working at to ask for directions, you don't expect a random unidentified and unseen person to take covert photos with an iphone, then upload them to a company the driver has never heard of, let alone 'agreed parking terms'.

£100 for stopping to ask for directions is fully distinguished from the clear signs and undenied contract in ParkingEye v Beavis and clearly has no legitimate interest to ssve it from being an unconscionable penalty.

The Claimant's behaviour is no better than when they were notorious rogue clampers before that activity became a criminal offence.  It is exactly this sort of predatory rogue conduct that the Government will stamp out with the new law being finalised in 2022: the Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019, which has published a draft including ten minutes consideration period to read signage and decide whether to stay or leave.  The driver left as soon as the person on foot warned them about the rogue ticketing operation.

Hi have done that and only made my comments about signage being high up/small font /over 300 words in context of having seen pics of it now during the case not saying that's how l saw it on the day iyswim.
My big problem now is trying to get the file which includes some pics and documents and is 27 mb to attach to an email. Nine hours (l kid you not) only stopped to eat evening meal,l have been at it.  Have opened a Gmail acct and reduced it to within attachment limit,tried sending it through Cloud (to my other email not the court as am just testing) and it comes out all messed up words all over place, it has become an issue now but just can't send it . 
Shall l take some pics out and rely on theirs as l previously requested?

su51_2

I have just removed a picture of the sign in question and it now goes fine as the file is now 23mb s . So have sent it,have followed all your advice so thought better get it sent.
Thanks once again so much.

Coupon-mad

Jolly good, hope you sent it to the local court and the solicitors?

And let us know what happens and don't forget that the Claimant missed a point in the Order entirely and your WS says nothing new so there was no disadvantage caused, and you hope the Judge understands that you tried to do everything right.