My old Spinningfield case. Link included kindly by RedX .Judge ordered preliminary phone hearing

su51_2

Redx and Coupon-mad thanks for your replies .  Unfortunately l got it moved to Blackpool from Manchester (please don't tell me that's a paradise for parking companies lol)  Coupon-mad....oh dear .....l thought my defence would still stand that l filed with the court and l thought adding extra evidence or documents etc was optional but as l didn't have anything else to add .... 

Coupon-mad

You did.  A WS was not optional.  The NEWBIES thread tells you what is required at each stage and so did the court Order and Directions.

I believe strictly speaking, you can't give witness evidence if you didn't provide a witness statement.

A stern Judge may well refuse to hear you at all and just decide the case on the evidence before them - none of which came from you and it will disadvantage you, I fear.

Attend, and cross your fingers for an understanding Judge and ask if they can allow you time before the final hearing to convert your email into a witness statement signed under a statement of truth, if otherwise you would not be treated as a witness nor allowed to speak.  Because you fully intend to give oral evidence and your presence and your email indicates you have tried to do things right, and effectively what you meant was that your defence was repeated and should stand as your WS.

su51_2

What happens now about the deadline (28th) for exchanging issues of cost (or whatever it said) to be agreed between the two parties and reduced as much as possible  etc.  I don't even know what that means.  My husband is self employed ,building trade so would lose about £75 for a mornings work as obv. can't conduct this call from a building site. From what l can gather l can't speak for him either but he is going to learn back to front his arguments that l have researched for him mainly off here. So does he have to put this to the court about his earnings loss before the 28th? Or does this deadline refer to something completely different ?
Would it be worth complaining to the court about the lateness of their withdrawal from the preliminary phone call and their premature claim to not be available for a final hearing yet to be set. 
Is it too late to make them an offer at this stage - they haven't  been in touch at all with any attempts to settle this as per the form states we should both attempt to do so - well that's how l read it anyway.  
l genuinely have tried to follow each stage and advice given but have become very bogged down and am just overwhelmed.
l'm terrible with technology which really hasn't helped at all and have very little time available to me to spend on this.  Thanks 
 for all your help and everyone on here though really appreciated but l'm getting really worried now about ending up owing hundreds of pounds which we can ill afford. 

Coupon-mad

You can speak as his lay representative but only if he attends throughout, as well. But like I say, be ready for flak for failing to file and serve a signed witness statement under a statement of truth.  

You say you are sending all these emails but you are not the Defendant are you?  So I hope you mean all the emails went from your husband's email and in his name, otherwise he has sent the court nothing since his defence and DQ.

I don't know what the court Directions say about costs, so what does it say exactly?

Did the Claimant file and serve a costs assessment?

su51_2

Coupon-mad said:

You can speak as his lay representative but only if he attends throughout, as well. But like I say, be ready for flak for failing to file and serve a signed witness statement under a statement of truth.  

You say you are sending all these emails but you are not the Defendant are you?  So I hope you mean all the emails went from your husband's email and in his name, otherwise he has sent the court nothing since his defence and DQ.

I don't know what the court Directions say about costs, so what does it say exactly?

Did the Claimant file and serve a costs assessment?

Oh l see about the representative being allowed, l thought we'd timed out on that too but just wondered if it will seem odd for my husband to have to be present throughout yet have his wife speaking for him unless he had some sort of speech/understanding /whatever/difficulty which he hasn't he has just delegated to me because of his work etc.  We were very careful to send everything from our joint email or his individual and it was all his own words l just looked everything up etc. 

No. 8 on the Notice of Allocation Form states:

8. The parties are expected to liaise and attempt to agree their calculations of the sums in issue in the claim and narrow the issues generally. The agreed calculations must be filed with the court by 4pm on 29th September 2021.
Absent agreement the parties' must send to the court and to each other their respective calculations by the same date.

su51_2

Claimant did mention costs as in they are all industry typical etc and quoted cases where they were deemed reasonable etc  and said it was of a cost to them to spend time etc replying to this case when they could've been dealing with their business etc etc and that the £100 was within guidelines but no specific breakdown of actual costs. 

su51_2

Umkomaas said:

su51_2 said:

thanks all l've learned something new today. Does doing that have any negative effect on your case as far as judge concerned,is it frowned upon ,seen as admission of guilt etc or is it always worth a punt.

If the offer letter is headed 'Without Prejudice, Save as to Costs', the Judge won't see that offer until after he/she has reached their judgment and costs are being discussed. So there is no possibility of anything being seen as an admission of anything.

Is there a template for this 'Drop Hands' anywhere please and l presume l just send it to the other side and not the court.  Also after reading my update is it worth now sending them an offer of say £60.

Thank you for your help so far.

su51_2

Redx said:

Gladstone never get involved with the court hearing , they remain at arms length , so everyone gets as letter or notification stating that neither the claimant or Gladstone's are attending , but usually a hired gun deals with it at short Notice

So if it gets to the actual hearing , expect a legal beagle hired gun to act for the claimant , or it may be that nobody turned up and it's decided on papers

It's all a part of their obfuscation

If it's Manchester court , it's a graveyard for parking companies

oh dear,  had it moved to our local court Blackpool.  Please don't tell me that's a paradise by contrast. 

Coupon-mad

We've no idea about Blackpool court but Manchester Judges know about the scam at Spinningfields.  Cross your fingers for a Judge who sees this for what it is. 

Don't send them an offer unless it is a drop hands offer meaning ZERO being paid by both sides and you walk away and they discontinue.

That Order is not about costs.  It's about the claimed amount, and whether the D has calculated that they owe anything and wants to settle the claim.  You owe nothing.

I am glad you showed it to us because it says you MUST supply the court with something by 4pm on that day, so that is an order.  Comply with it and send the court a summary at 3.45pm that day (copy in Gladstones) stating that this is a known entrapment zone, you stopped to ask for directions and were working on the estate and there were no prominent signs and you didn't park there, so you calculate you owe no parking charge.

Secondly, as your defence covers, the added £60 is double recovery by Gladstones who have already added the capped £50 legal fees to the small claim and can't have it twice, especially as the only letter received after your online appeal was rejected, was a Letter Before Claim.  No PCN addressed to you, no offer of the discount, no photos, no picture of the sign, nothing that could be construed as debt recovery work or that complied with the pre-action protocol to narrow the issues.

As such there was no breach of agreed terms and there is no parking charge owed, no justification for the abuse of adding sums on top and you sent a drop hands offer but it was not accepted.

Do the drop hands offer today.

That doesn't mean offering any money at all!  It's what it sounds like - let's drop hands snd both walk away without cost.  Tell Gladstones that if their client discontinues, you won't ask for costs for your wasted time on a case where an authorised contractor vehicle stopped for directions in a known snd well publicised entrapment zone.

What I suggest you do as well is a witness statement NOW that recounts what happened and the fact he appealed.  All the facts are in the first post of your old thread.  Copy those into a document and put it with the headings and statement of truth shown in the thread by @Nosy recently and get your husband to sign and date it.

Send that to the court and Gladstones as well.   Do that separately, tomorrow.  Better late than never.

The drop hands offer DOES NOT go to the court as well.  Offers are private, even zero offer negotiations.

...but at 3.45pm on 29th, comply with the Order and email the court what I said above about having tried to narrow the issues but owing zero.

Hopefully Gladstones will fail to comply in time with that order, because it is unusual and i hope they missed it.

Then, at the hearing if the Judge says your WS was late, say you thought an email relying on and repeating your defence was sufficient and realised only when reviewing the Directions to comply with point 8, that a signed witness statement was what the court and Claimant expect.  So you did so and added nothing new that the C didn't already know from the account in the appeal in 2019.  However...you note that the Claimant didn't comply with point 8 of the Directions at all, so you hope the court will see your late WS as not causing any disadvantage to the C.

su51_2

 

Coupon-mad said:

Coupon-mad said:

We've no idea about Blackpool court but Manchester Judges know about the scam at Spinningfields.  Cross your fingers for a Judge who sees this for what it is. 

Don't send them an offer unless it is a drop hands offer meaning ZERO being paid by both sides and you walk away and they discontinue.

That Order is not about costs.  It's about the claimed amount, and whether the D has calculated that they owe anything and wants to settle the claim.  You owe nothing.

I am glad you showed it to us because it says you MUST supply the court with something by 4pm on that day, so that is an order.  Comply with it and send the court a summary at 3.45pm that day (copy in Gladstones) stating that this is a known entrapment zone, you stopped to ask for directions and were working on the estate and there were no prominent signs and you didn't park there, so you calculate you owe no parking charge.

Secondly, as your defence covers, the added £60 is double recovery by Gladstones who have already added the capped £50 legal fees to the small claim and can't have it twice, especially as the only letter received after your online appeal was rejected, was a Letter Before Claim.  No PCN addressed to you, no offer of the discount, no photos, no picture of the sign, nothing that could be construed as debt recovery work or that complied with the pre-action protocol to narrow the issues.

As such there was no breach of agreed terms and there is no parking charge owed, no justification for the abuse of adding sums on top and you sent a drop hands offer but it was not accepted.

Do the drop hands offer today.

That doesn't mean offering any money at all!  It's what it sounds like - let's drop hands snd both walk away without cost.  Tell Gladstones that if their client discontinues, you won't ask for costs for your wasted time on a case where an authorised contractor vehicle stopped for directions in a known snd well publicised entrapment zone.

What I suggest you do as well is a witness statement NOW tgat recounts ehat happened snd the fact he appealed.  All the facts are in the first post of your old thread.  Copy thise into a document and put it with the headings abd statement if truth shown in the thread by @Nosy recently and get your husband to sign and date it

Send that to the court and Gladstones as well.   Do that separately, tomorrow.  Better late than never.

The drop hands offer DOES NOT go to the court as well.  Offers are private, even zero offer negotiations.

...but at 3.45pm on 29th, comply with the Order and email the court what I said above about having tried to narrow the issues but owing zero.

Hopefully Gladstones will fail to comply in time with that order, because it is unusual and i hope they missed it.

Then, at the hearing if the Judge says your WS was late, say you thought an email relying on and repeating your defence was sufficient and realised only when reviewing the Directions to comply with point 8, that a signed witness statement was what the court and Claimant expect.  So you did so snd added nothing new that the C didn't already know from the account in the appeal in 2019.  However...you note that the Claimant didn't comply with point 8 of the Directions at all, so you hope the court will see your late WS as not causing any disadvantage to the C.

Thank you once again so much. I will deal with the drop hands today then.
So just to make sure l don't make any more !!!!!! ups ,firstly is it ok to email rather than post this to Gladstones and if l understand correctly not copy in the court ?  Do l use the words 'drop hands' or is that a slang for it. Or do l use the words more or less in your paragraph 8 above 'if your client discontinues' etc   Is there a template anywhere on here for a drop hands please ? If not l presume l  start it with  'Without  Prejudice' .  
Then this evening l will deal with the WS and reply to the courts paragraph 8 order. and send to both.  Is it ok to send them by email as from what you previously advised me l should have posted WS.  Thanks so much once again.