Contesting a Will as Next-of-Kin

74jax

Manxman_in_exile said:

Thrugelmir said:

74jax said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Maybe I've missed it in another reply, but what is the correct thing to do (and who does it) when all the executors renounce and nobody else (family or friends) wants to get involved with the estate?  As, for example, in this case where the beneficiaries are all charities and may not even be aware of the death - or even the bequest.

The charities are aware in this instance as they 'coerced' the new Will - apparently - so they will take over.

Unlikely the Charities themselves had any involvement. Without charitable donations hospices and other respite centres wouldn't exist. I can understand why somebody with a terminal illness would feel a gratitude towards such an organisation. While being looked after in there. 

Keep_pedalling said:

74jax said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

Maybe I've missed it in another reply, but what is the correct thing to do (and who does it) when all the executors renounce and nobody else (family or friends) wants to get involved with the estate?  As, for example, in this case where the beneficiaries are all charities and may not even be aware of the death - or even the bequest.

The charities are aware in this instance as they 'coerced' the new Will - apparently - so they will take over.

Usually, the funeral director will ask for a Will, and contact beneficiaries if executors renounce. They won't hold the body forever.  If no assets it becomes a council burial. 

I doubt it very much, even if they were made aware of benign the beneficiaries they  will not be aware that the executors have renounced.

I assumed 74jax was posting tongue in cheek when they said the charities would already be aware.  Of course they would be if they instigated the new will...     

@Manxman_in_exile we she been on these boards too long 🙃

thegreenone

Flugelhorn said:

thegreenone said:

OP, who witnessed the signing of the new Will, please?  I would be very surprised if hospital staff are permitted to do that and as  far as I am aware, Hospice staff are not allowed to do so either.  Cousin's GP should have visited and made an assessment first.

Also, as someone pointed out earlier, why would your cousin make a hospice a beneficiary when he hadn't even been there?
  
No use to OP now but you can contact a Primary Care Trust to pass on concerns to GPs/hospitals. They are listed on the internet and hopefully you can find a relative that way.  I did this when I was very concerned about my late brother's mental health issues.  They were very helpful.

why would GP be involved in making an assessment before a patient made a will? they don't get involved in mental capacity assessments for that sort of thing - it is down to the lawyers to assure themselves that the person knows what they are doing. 

When someone is approaching end of life the palliative care  team will often mention that they may wish to "tie up any legal matters eg make a will if they haven't already" 

So a lawyer knows more about a persons mental capacity than their GP?  Really?  No.  

A GP has to assess that the person making the Will is able to understand what they are doing.  

Flugelhorn

thegreenone said:

Flugelhorn said:

thegreenone said:

OP, who witnessed the signing of the new Will, please?  I would be very surprised if hospital staff are permitted to do that and as  far as I am aware, Hospice staff are not allowed to do so either.  Cousin's GP should have visited and made an assessment first.

Also, as someone pointed out earlier, why would your cousin make a hospice a beneficiary when he hadn't even been there?
  
No use to OP now but you can contact a Primary Care Trust to pass on concerns to GPs/hospitals. They are listed on the internet and hopefully you can find a relative that way.  I did this when I was very concerned about my late brother's mental health issues.  They were very helpful.

why would GP be involved in making an assessment before a patient made a will? they don't get involved in mental capacity assessments for that sort of thing - it is down to the lawyers to assure themselves that the person knows what they are doing. 

When someone is approaching end of life the palliative care  team will often mention that they may wish to "tie up any legal matters eg make a will if they haven't already" 

So a lawyer knows more about a persons mental capacity than their GP?  Really?  No.  

A GP has to assess that the person making the Will is able to understand what they are doing.  

no they don't! GP can (and do on a daily basis) assess people's capacity to consent to medical treatment and their understanding of the benefits / risks. Capacity is time and event specific, therefore for legal matters a solicitor is the one needs to be sure re capacity for that specific matter - they can get an IMCA if needed.  I worked for decades as a GP and was never involved in capacity for a will and just  a few LPOA assessments 

Mrs_Z

Whilst I can not offer any advice re: contesting the will, I have sympathy for the OP.
I'm in a situation myself where a friend who does not live close by, has been diagnosed with a terminal illness and in absence of close relatives, asked if I could be named as the Next of Kin for hospital paperwork and if I would be willing to be an Executor to their will - both of which I've agreed to.
After the initial diagnosis, the said friend has had a stay in hospital of which I knew nothing about as it came about very suddenly and it was after few days until they texted me. Due to them feeling poorly, they would not respond to every question or text sent.  At some point, their phone stopped working too. I had no details whatsoever how and who to contact or which hospital they were in. 
Since then, this friend has had surgery and although at that point, I knew the dates and the hospital, was not allowed to visit due to the hospital Corona virus restrictions (total ban on visitors). 
In addition, friend has not been vaccinated due to medication, so it's always a question of whether or not you want to take the risk of potentially infecting them even though you might not have any symptoms yourself. Luckily the situation now has changed somewhat and it's possible to get some home testing kits.
So, I feel for the OP, and I find it strange that the whole of family/friends have been totally cut off.  I understand the deceased possibly changing their mind but you would have thought that they would have still included friends and family in some way ie. just left them a reduced legacy.

BooJewels

Thank you for your kind thoughts @poppystar and @maman - much appreciated.  Truth be told, I don't think it's actually properly sunk in yet.

Someone touched on Palliative Care nurses asking about things like Wills and I can vouch for that being asked of us - as they can help facilitate that if not already done.  Not sure what format that would take, as we did ours at the time of diagnosis, so had it in hand.

Flugelhorn

BooJewels said:

Thank you for your kind thoughts @poppystar and @maman - much appreciated.  Truth be told, I don't think it's actually properly sunk in yet.

Someone touched on Palliative Care nurses asking about things like Wills and I can vouch for that being asked of us - as they can help facilitate that if not already done.  Not sure what format that would take, as we did ours at the time of diagnosis, so had it in hand.

they can encourage people to contact a solicitor (or contact them themselves) who will visit the house / hospital / hospice to do a will, there was one teed up for uncle but he deteriorated faster than expected, - pall care teams  have also been known to start the ball rolling on arranging marriages if appropriate, usually the chaplain (if in hospital or hospice) gets involved as they are the ones to arrange the emergency licence etc 

p00hsticks

Flugelhorn said:

BooJewels said:

Thank you for your kind thoughts @poppystar and @maman - much appreciated.  Truth be told, I don't think it's actually properly sunk in yet.

Someone touched on Palliative Care nurses asking about things like Wills and I can vouch for that being asked of us - as they can help facilitate that if not already done.  Not sure what format that would take, as we did ours at the time of diagnosis, so had it in hand.

they can encourage people to contact a solicitor (or contact them themselves) who will visit the house / hospital / hospice to do a will, there was one teed up for uncle but he deteriorated faster than expected, - pall care teams  have also been known to start the ball rolling on arranging marriages if appropriate, usually the chaplain (if in hospital or hospice) gets involved as they are the ones to arrange the emergency licence etc 

But even if they encourage and facilitate people making a will, they won't know what the contents of the will are, and - contrary what some people on this thread have suggested - the central charity won't have been involved in the process at all and so are extremely unlikely to be aware that they are beneficiaries. I've been told that individuals working for the main palliative care charities are expressly forbidden from receving gifts and bequests - it is part of their employment contract.

Flugelhorn

totally agree @p00hsticks - they would be unlikely to be around at the time the will was made, it is just the initial arrangement 

RomfordNavy

74jax said:

The close friends were there virtually daily.  Some of them have incurred significant costs carrying out the deceased wishes but none got even a mention in the final Will.

I know you've mentioned this before but this is really normal.
You obviously don't do things for friends or family during palative stages hoping they will include you in the will. You carry out wishes as you are close and want too. 

When those tasks involve significant cost I can understand why those friends expected to get some gratuity to cover the costs.

Lets the the case of the friend who arranged the Solicitor to do the Will.  The now deceased was under pressure from the Nurses to get a Will written, they had asked said friend to chase-up partially completed equity release on a property to cover the cost of having the Will written.  As this was obviously causing qute a bit of distress, in the end the friend said don't worry about the cost I will pay for it and arranged for Solicitors to visit.  I don't think it unreasonable for that friend to have quite reasonably expected some small gratuity to cover the those costs.  You have to bear in mind that the deceased was very independent and allways has been, they would never ask anyone to do something without paying them.

RomfordNavy

Manxman_in_exile said:

RomfordNavy said:

74jax said:

Is this a close relative? A parent / sibling?

...

If it's a close relative, how you didn't even speak to a nurse, doctor, specialist at all, is beyond me. You need to prove certain things to contest a Will and a couple are - sound mind (which you have implied they had) and that the close relationship continued. When you couldn't get hold of them (at end of life) you didn't even call hospitals..... More you won't arrange a funeral, despite a funeral Bill being the first thing paid from an estate.

...
It looks like they chose to change the will as you weren't as close as you thought you were and in the final month they realised this.

When they first entered hospital they confirmed that I would be given as NoK which I agreed to.  The deceased did not provide any indication of what hospital they were in.  Final messages we had were suggesting that they were being prepared for coming home...

So your cousin contacted you out of the blue to say that they had been admitted to hospital, and they also told you that they had given your name to the hospital as NoK, but your cousin refused to tell you what hospital they were in?  But he kept in touch with you (until his 'phone battery ran out) and gave you the impression he would soon be discharged?  But he never told you where he was?

It seems totally bizarre (and a bit unbelieveable to be honest... ) that he would go to the trouble of contacting you to say he was in hospital - but not tell you which hospital.  Why would he do that?  None of that makes sense.  (It doesn't even make sense if he was confused etc because of medication.  If he had the capability to tell you he was in hospital, he was capable of telling you where.  It makes no sense.)

RomfordNavy said:

74jax said:

Is this a close relative? A parent / sibling?

...

If it's a close relative, how you didn't even speak to a nurse, doctor, specialist at all, is beyond me. You need to prove certain things to contest a Will and a couple are - sound mind (which you have implied they had) and that the close relationship continued. When you couldn't get hold of them (at end of life) you didn't even call hospitals..... More you won't arrange a funeral, despite a funeral Bill being the first thing paid from an estate.

...
It looks like they chose to change the will as you weren't as close as you thought you were and in the final month they realised this.

Other family members have indicated that they feel somewhat offended by being virtually completely left out of the Will and are reluctant to pay towards a funeral if they are not going to get it back which they won't if it is done without the permission of the executors.  A funeral bill is only the first thing paid from an estate if the executors agreed to it in advance.

I'm sorry to say I don't think much of the "other family members".  I can't imagine any family member being so offended in this situation that they would not contribute to the funeral.

RomfordNavy said:

sheramber said:

Did you not ask what hospital he was in? That is the first thing I  would have asked.

sheramber said:

How often do any of these family and friends visit him before covid restrictions? 
 

The close friends were there virtually daily.  Some of them have incurred significant costs carrying out the deceased wishes but none got even a mention in the final Will.

sheramber said:

if the friend who was involved with the hospital didn't have any contact with  the family, it doesn't sound as if there was as close a relationship with your uncle as you like to think. 
 

I can't imagine what significant costs they would have incurred carrying out the deceased's wishes.  If they were deathbed wishes then I'm not sure they should have expected to be reimbursed.  How do you know they incurred these costs?  I presume they told you?  Do you believe them?

And are they the same "friends" who refuse to act as executors because they were not left anything, and would rather your cousin remained unburied?

I can't say that anybody seems to come out of this very well...

Where are you getting this information, no one contacted anyone "out of the blue".  Of two people who had a long-term arrangement that each would be the others next-of-kin, one went into hospital via A&E and at that time fully expected to be conning out again.

Other family members find it quite unbelievable that the deceased, had they been of sound mind, would not mention some very significant family heirlooms and would compltely excluse both themselves and close friends.

When we discussed going to visit to collect things from home the nowdeceased said that there was no need as they had some local friends who were taking clothes and post in from home as necessary and that they would let us know if there was anything else they needed.

I can't explain more about the costs incurred without almost identifying the person but just accept that this was related to what we will call a hobby but trust me when I say it was quite significant.

As for the funeral: judging by the number of friends the people attending the Wake is likely to be in the hundreds.  None of the family have anywhere near enough money readilly available to arrange something like that.