Nightmare tenant - advice please!!

Windsorcastle

 As LoL say's it is very easy to fluff a S21 notice, even if you've completely met all the legal requirements like deposit notices, leaflets and safety checks.

Given the evidence so far, it's quite possible that the LL hasn't met the basic statutory requirements. Not a fan of such companies but he should either get proper legal advice or use someone like Landlord Action to ensure he's got his ducks in a row at the start.

And use noise abatement and any lease requirements to encourage him to get the tenants out.

Thanks. I didn't know there were companies who specialise in helping LLs with evicting problem tenants so I will suggest that to him as well.  We will also look at the lease and see what other pressure we can pit on him.  But at the same time, we are trying to support the LL in evicting these tenants rather than threatening him and making his inaction more entrenched, so it's tricky...

Windsorcastle

Lover_of_Lycra said:

Windsorcastle said:

dj1471 said:

Also… 2 months notice may not be sufficient depending on the grounds being used for eviction. The landlord should ensure that a s8 notice has been correctly served with the right notice period. A s21 can’t be used if the tenancy is less than 4 months old or if the tenant is still in the minimum term.

Pretty sure the tenancy is less than 4 months old, so which type of notice should he be serving in that case?

I don’t think there is a mandatory ground for eviction the landlord could serve using a Section 8 notice at present. You can’t make the landlord serve notice and even if he did at some point in the future get his act together and serve valid notice the notice on its own doesn’t end the tenancy. Notice is just that, notice that the landlord might go to court to get a possession order. 

I think your time would be better spent working with the council’s noise team and reading the terms of the landlord’s lease to see if there’s anything the freeholder can get him on. 

I am one of the freeholders.  All of the owners bar two share the freehold.  The LL is also one of the freeholders.  This is why it's all very awkward.  But we absolutely do need to go through the lease with a fine-tooth comb to see what pressure we can bring to bear on him.  

Windsorcastle

RAS said:

You need to start by asking the LL how long the fixed term is, as NO notice can be issued in the minimum term.

I've asked the LL to confirm that.  So, if the fixed term is 6 months, can the LL just re-take possession then, if he has told the tenant he intends to do that?  And does that also mean that if the fixed-term was 18 months, there is absolutely nothing he could do until the 18 months are up?  (I'm praying that it's a 6 monther.)

swingaloo2

Windsorcastle said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Windsorcastle said:

I have no sympathy for the LL , as he has rented to these criminals without carrying out any due diligence or taking references.  ...

How do you know that?

In a way, the fact the tenants are renting is far better for you than if the tenants had purchased. 

However unwelcome you find the tenant's behaviour, the fact they are renting does mean the LL has a route to evict should the LL be so motivated - that motivation is likely to come if / when the rent payments fail.

If the tenant's were purchasing, then there would not be even that glimmer of optimism for you.

By his own admission, he didn't take up references - we asked him to contact the tenant's employer and tell them about the rent arrears and drug use, and he confirmed he had no references - and as this is the third set of tenants who have caused problems of some sort, he never seems to learn his lesson.  

You really are barking up the wrong tree with this. Firstly you are calling the tenants criminals without proof of any kind. They may just be smoking for personal use and that is not illegal.  

The landlord has no right at all to contact the tenants employer either about arrears or drug use. Nor do you have right to ask him to do so.  You need to be a little less vocal or ou may find yourself on the wrong side of the law. 

I do sympathise with your situation but it can only be solved by the landlord giving them the correct notice and that is assuming he has complied with all the rules necessary to serve notice correctly otherwise  they may be there longer than either of you would like. To be honest if he is not the kind of landlord to be fussy about who he rents his property to you may well find the next tenants no better.

[Deleted User]

Windsorcastle said:

RAS said:

You need to start by asking the LL how long the fixed term is, as NO notice can be issued in the minimum term.

I've asked the LL to confirm that.  So, if the fixed term is 6 months, can the LL just re-take possession then, if he has told the tenant he intends to do that?  And does that also mean that if the fixed-term was 18 months, there is absolutely nothing he could do until the 18 months are up?  (I'm praying that it's a 6 monther.)

No a landlord can’t simply take back possession of a property at the end of the fixed term. The tenancy automatically becomes periodic and the landlord would still have to serve valid notice then get a possession order from a court and instruct bailiffs if necessary. @RAS gave you a link to Tenancies in England and Wales on the first page. It might be a good idea to read it if you are intent on helping the landlord. 

Windsorcastle

swingaloo2 said:

Windsorcastle said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Windsorcastle said:

I have no sympathy for the LL , as he has rented to these criminals without carrying out any due diligence or taking references.  ...

How do you know that?

In a way, the fact the tenants are renting is far better for you than if the tenants had purchased. 

However unwelcome you find the tenant's behaviour, the fact they are renting does mean the LL has a route to evict should the LL be so motivated - that motivation is likely to come if / when the rent payments fail.

If the tenant's were purchasing, then there would not be even that glimmer of optimism for you.

By his own admission, he didn't take up references - we asked him to contact the tenant's employer and tell them about the rent arrears and drug use, and he confirmed he had no references - and as this is the third set of tenants who have caused problems of some sort, he never seems to learn his lesson.  

You really are barking up the wrong tree with this. Firstly you are calling the tenants criminals without proof of any kind. They may just be smoking for personal use and that is not illegal.  

Smoking marijuana IS illegal, for personal use or not!!

Windsorcastle

RAS said:

Read Tenancies in Eng/Wales: Guides for landlords and tenants — MoneySavingExpert Forum

assuming you are in England and Wales

So that you understand the limitations of what you can do.

Is the leaseholder managing the tenancy themselves or do they use an agency?

Because the current minimum for notice to leave is 4 months, not pre-Covid 2 months. And that notice can't be given until the fixed notice ends. How long is the initial rental period?

Unless the tenants are seriously in arrears and there is evidence of anti-social behaviour, it takes about a year to get a case to court and then ages to get bailiffs.

No one is going to buy the flat until the tenants move out, unless it's sold to an investor who wants the tenants in situ. 

I suggest you point out to the landlord that E&W rental law has changed and they need to get up to speed as the current notice is invalid. There are some very effective companies who will manage the eviction process which they might be wise to use as they are overseas. They cost but if it means extracting the tenants a year earlier it may be worth it to him.

I'm guessing you are not satisfied with the management company's response otherwise, but they are also limited in what they can do. Get them to read the lease? 

Meantime, try to learn more about the tenant's names etc and the child and if you are seriously concerned, report to child safeguarding.

Thank you for this, I will look closely at the document on this link and will pass it on to the LL.  He is also one of the freeholders of the building, and we all manage the whole building jointly, but he manages the tenancy of his flat himself.  If he had used an agency, we might have had more leverage.  I believe the initial rental period is 6 months, and they are 4 months into that.  I have previously advised the LL to get advice from the NRLA, of which he is a member but he seems to be relying on his tenants quietly moving out in 2 months time when the notice in the tenancy agreement expires.  He says that he has advised them that they are in breach of the tenancy agreement which is why he is terminating it.  Given that they have already changed the locks, I think he is being naive to think they will just go quietly.

swingaloo2

Windsorcastle said:

swingaloo2 said:

Windsorcastle said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Windsorcastle said:

I have no sympathy for the LL , as he has rented to these criminals without carrying out any due diligence or taking references.  ...

How do you know that?

In a way, the fact the tenants are renting is far better for you than if the tenants had purchased. 

However unwelcome you find the tenant's behaviour, the fact they are renting does mean the LL has a route to evict should the LL be so motivated - that motivation is likely to come if / when the rent payments fail.

If the tenant's were purchasing, then there would not be even that glimmer of optimism for you.

By his own admission, he didn't take up references - we asked him to contact the tenant's employer and tell them about the rent arrears and drug use, and he confirmed he had no references - and as this is the third set of tenants who have caused problems of some sort, he never seems to learn his lesson.  

You really are barking up the wrong tree with this. Firstly you are calling the tenants criminals without proof of any kind. They may just be smoking for personal use and that is not illegal.  

Smoking marijuana IS illegal, for personal use or not!!

Yes, my apologies, it is illegal, however the police will only be interested if the tenant is growing, dealing or possessing a large amount. A small amount for personal use will not result in a prosecution or eviction. 

AdrianC

swingaloo2 said:

Firstly you are calling the tenants criminals without proof of any kind. They may just be smoking for personal use and that is not illegal.

Possession is - and it's hard to smoke what they haven't got...

BUT it is a trivial offence, likely to be dealt with by a caution, if it's only a small amount and they have no previous record.

Grumpy_chap

Windsorcastle said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Windsorcastle said:

I have no sympathy for the LL , as he has rented to these criminals without carrying out any due diligence or taking references.  ...

How do you know that?

In a way, the fact the tenants are renting is far better for you than if the tenants had purchased. 

However unwelcome you find the tenant's behaviour, the fact they are renting does mean the LL has a route to evict should the LL be so motivated - that motivation is likely to come if / when the rent payments fail.

If the tenant's were purchasing, then there would not be even that glimmer of optimism for you.

By his own admission, he didn't take up references - we asked him to contact the tenant's employer and tell them about the rent arrears and drug use, and he confirmed he had no references - and as this is the third set of tenants who have caused problems of some sort, he never seems to learn his lesson.  

I very much doubt that the LL can inform the tenant's employer about anything - GDPR would see to that - or that the employer would be interested if informed.

The drug use you claim to know because of the smell that escape - how do you know about rent arrears?  That is none of your business and the LL should not have told you unless the tenant shared the information.

As for the LL taking no references, that does not mean no due diligence.  References are of little value - who would put forward a referee that won't give a good reference?  

You seem also very confused on the rights of the tenant as you have mentioned several times the change of locks as a sign of ill-intent.  The tenant is entirely entirely to their peaceful use of the property and security of the property.  The LL can only access the property with the tenant's agreement and for specific purposes.  There is no reason the tenant cannot change the lock barrel on moving in and simply replace the original barrel at departure.

As you are not the LL to the tenant, getting involved to this level of detail is likely only going to cause you undue stress and very little gain.  Are you, or have you ever been, a LL?  If not, then you need to really learn about all the rules and regulations that apply before getting involved beyond the level that anyone else can get involved with a neighbour dispute. 

I take it you are aware you will now need to declare this dispute when you ever come to sell your flat?  That may impact saleability.

You also ignored my comments about this being better a bad tenant who is renting than a bad tenant who has purchaed the flat.