Boiler and Noisy Pipes - Who is Responsible?

jimbojambo1234

Section62 said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

(Did you contact them at all about this issue before the 2 years were up?)

^This.

It might be too late for the OP, but with anything that has a warranty and requires occasional servicing (boilers/cars/white goods) it is never a good idea to leave known problems until a service happening right at the end of the warranty period.  In addition to the risk of the supplier wriggling out of the warranty, there's also a risk of them introducing new faults as part of the rectification work, and you are in a stronger position to get those fixed if there is still some time to run on the warranty.

OP, was the boiler installation organised by yourself, or was it by the developer as part of the build?  If it was the developer then I'd be complaining to them as well. Their design of the system is potentially one cause of the problem, if not, you should at least explore what your contract with them says about the heating system.

Thank you for replying. I had a warranty with Ideal Boilers for two years which they delayed for a year (until end of the warranty). The plumbing company work with the developer and I had a warranty with the plumbing company via the developer so have been in touch with them this week too. 

The latest that the developer told me via the plumbing company was that they do not think that it is an installation issue. I assumed that Ideal would be able to fix this or at least tell me what the problem is but this didn't happen until July 2021 but which time my warranty has expired. I have had noisy pipes after the temperature is above a certain amount since Jan 2020 but I haven't mentioned it to the developer/plumbing company as I thought that Ideal would be able to help and I didn't want anyone in the house due to Covid.

I assume that I am now going to get a large bill as I haven't mentioned it to the developer/plumbing company since I have been out of warranty which is extremely frustrating and depressing. 

Jeepers_Creepers

Thanks JJ.

Ok, the installer obviously supplied the boiler too (you didn't buy it separately), so the installer is actually liable for everything. Or, they would be if it were still under the 2-year warranty...

By that I mean, if this issue had been brought to the installer's attention within the 2-year warranty period, then it would have been fixed by the installer regardless of whether it was a boiler fault or an installation issue. The installer did both things - supplied and fitted. They are therefore liable for everything. Even if the installer discovered it was a fault with the boiler, tough - they'd still have to sort it under your warranty, and then tackle Ideal afterwards if they want - that's their issue.

So, installer liable for it all - whilst the warranty lasted.

The question now is, is the lockdown a valid reason to expect this warranty period to be extended, since the fault occurred during the 2-year period, but you couldn't call anyone out? And, next Q - by how much has the warranty expired by anyway? Answer to (2) - one measly month.

So, on balance, what are the chances of you persuading the installer to forgo the repair charge for this? I don't know. Let's ask it another way - just how set in stone are such warranty periods? I mean, if this does turn out to be down to an installation error, do you think the installer can just shrug their shoulders? Of course not - if there's a mistake, then it was there from day one. I am as certain as a certain thing that a SmallClaims would succeed. (And I'm as near-certain as a near-certain thing that it wouldn't even get that far before the company said "fair do's, we messed, no charge" Social media is a powerful tool/threat; "They admit they made a mistake, but still expect me to pay to fix it?!")

Ok, that's if it's an installation error. What if it turns out to be a faulty boiler? A bit more grey, but I would expect Ideal to at least cover the cost of parts, and perhaps even a good contribution to the labour - possibly all. Why? Because if their boiler started to 'bang' within a few months of installation - or even after 2 years - then it can be reasonably assumed that the boiler wasn't all that good when it left their shop. 2 years is pants. If it fails just after that, it's still pants.

SO, the installer is the group to tackle. You ask them to come out, find the fault, and fix it. You then start negotiating, depending on the cause. If you need to pay for it there and then, it's a 'PuP', followed by some reasoned emails, and then a SClaim.

Do you have LP on your insurance?

jimbojambo1234

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Thanks JJ.

Ok, the installer obviously supplied the boiler too (you didn't buy it separately), so the installer is actually liable for everything. Or, they would be if it were still under the 2-year warranty...

By that I mean, if this issue had been brought to the installer's attention within the 2-year warranty period, then it would have been fixed by the installer regardless of whether it was a boiler fault or an installation issue. The installer did both things - supplied and fitted. They are therefore liable for everything. Even if the installer discovered it was a fault with the boiler, tough - they'd still have to sort it under your warranty, and then tackle Ideal afterwards if they want - that's their issue.

So, installer liable for it all - whilst the warranty lasted.

The question now is, is the lockdown a valid reason to expect this warranty period to be extended, since the fault occurred during the 2-year period, but you couldn't call anyone out? And, next Q - by how much has the warranty expired by anyway? Answer to (2) - one measly month.

So, on balance, what are the chances of you persuading the installer to forgo the repair charge for this? I don't know. Let's ask it another way - just how set in stone are such warranty periods? I mean, if this does turn out to be down to an installation error, do you think the installer can just shrug their shoulders? Of course not - if there's a mistake, then it was there from day one. I am as certain as a certain thing that a SmallClaims would succeed. (And I'm as near-certain as a near-certain thing that it wouldn't even get that far before the company said "fair do's, we messed, no charge" Social media is a powerful tool/threat; "They admit they made a mistake, but still expect me to pay to fix it?!")

Ok, that's if it's an installation error. What if it turns out to be a faulty boiler? A bit more grey, but I would expect Ideal to at least cover the cost of parts, and perhaps even a good contribution to the labour - possibly all. Why? Because if their boiler started to 'bang' within a few months of installation - or even after 2 years - then it can be reasonably assumed that the boiler wasn't all that good when it left their shop. 2 years is pants. If it fails just after that, it's still pants.

SO, the installer is the group to tackle. You ask them to come out, find the fault, and fix it. You then start negotiating, depending on the cause. If you need to pay for it there and then, it's a 'PuP', followed by some reasoned emails, and then a SClaim.

Do you have LP on your insurance?

Hi JC, thanks for another in-depth response. Much appreciated. 

With regards to the installer, I'm communicating with them via the building developer as I think the warranty was with the developer so thought that might be sensible at this stage as I have done that in the past and the developer has sent the plumbing company out. However, the sticker on the boiler manual says that it was installed by the plumbing company. Not sure if that matters though. 

I have checked my buildings insurance and do not believe that I have legal protection. I assume if I did then they would pay for going through small claims? 

When I got a response from the installer via the developer, my question was to ask them if they would be willing to attend to look at the banging pipes. The response was "is this a recent issue? If it was a problem at the time of install then they would have been notified.". 

My thought on the next step would be to say that the banging pipes started in Jan 2020. However, wouldn't the installer/developer just think/say that I am making it up and they say they do not want to take a look? Even if they came out to look at the boiler/pipes, wouldn't they just say the fault is with the boiler and it's Ideal's problem? What would I do then? 

The developer wouldn't even accept the engineer's report (which is the part which mentions that he suspects that the loud pipes is an install error). I had to send them a picture of what the engineer wrote in the boiler manual (service record part) in which he said there "All OK".

fezster

In order to move forwards, I think you need to find out what the problem is first. Either Google it and try some of the suggestions (eg. bleeding air from the system), or get a professional in to properly diagnose the issue and suggest a fix (you'll most likely have to pay for this). Then you can chase the installer and/or boiler manufacturer to try and get them to fix it.

I doubt the installer will be interested after the length of time which has passed. And most likely, the installation is where the problem resides. Which will probably mean you'll end up having to pay to get the problem fixed, unless the installer is somehow obliged to fix the problem (nhbc warranty?) 

NSG666

From what you are now saying it appears that you have and never had any contract with the installer of the central heating system unless you find info to the contrary in the warranty you refer to.

Be straight with the developer and tell them when the symptoms first occurred and that rightly or wrongly you were going to flag it up at the first service which kept getting delayed by Ideal (or at least their service engineer). If they say tough it's down to you then ask them what they will do regards reimbursing you if you get your own engineer in to diagnose the cause and it turns out to be an installation issue. They may turn it round and say we'll send someone out but if it's not an installation issue we will charge you and that might be the best option.

For info I know someone who had a Worcester Bosch boiler fitted and had similar symptoms resulting in a visit from a WB engineer. After much head scratching he discovered that the flow and returns on the boiler had been connected the wrong way round (pump in the airing cupboard not a system boiler). This was quite clearly an installation issue and the installer had to rectify it. Not suggesting this is the cause of your symptoms but illustrating the kind of installation issue that can occur.

cattom

but why do the pipes bang? if indeed it is the pipes. the boiler and pipe work in this place came here with noah and his ark, and they are still fine today. (touchwood). so surely it must just be an air lock or something straight forward.

Jeepers_Creepers

JJ, LegProt will first give you proper legal advice - eg, whether you have a claim/good chance at a claim - and will, if it's something straight-forward, advise how to proceed on this. (Eg, they might ask you to contact the 3rd party and just be more insistent, armed with the correct legal jargon, if they think that will do the trick.) For more complex issues, they will - if they are confident there's a greater than 50% chance (or thereabouts) of winning - take on the case. Ie, they would write using legal-speak to the housebuilder/installer, and explain what's going to happen if they don't sort themselves out...) Anyhoo, that's a moot point here if you don't have it. And they might, in any case, have just told you that you messed up by not registering the fault before the 2 years were up.

I would say, tho', that - if it's an installation fault - the installer will either put it right voluntarily and for no charge, or else you wouldn't have much trouble persuading them to do so. If it turns out to be a boiler issue, then I think there's a fair chance you could persuade Ideal to cover the parts at least. And a reasonable chance they'd cover it all since you had called them out (albeit for just a service) within the 2 years, but it's them (or C-19) that caused the delay. (I presume you would have brought the 'banging' to their attention?!)

So, since you now DO need to get someone out to (a) ID the cause and (b) hopefully effect a cure, I would personally suggest you ask the installer to do this. Why? Because they are familiar with the system, and also - if it's an installation issue - it shouldn't cost you a penny. If it's a boiler issue, you just cough up, and then tackle Ideal - after all, they supposedly checked it out first and claimed it was an installation fault. They messed up, so should morally recompense you.

If you, instead, go 'independent', then you'll have to pay for that assessment. You cannot go back to the installer and say "They found this - it's your fault, so come and fix it!", 'cos they will just reply, "You should have called us out for this, pal..."

And be totally upfront - explain that you are in a dilemma since Ideal say the boiler is fine, so you need to have the installation checked - and they are surely the best ones to do this. Make it clear that, if it ain't an installation fault, then of course you'll pay them for the repair.

Seems to me you should be ok either way - you are giving the installer a chance to sort it, and have already given the Ideal service fellow a chance for ditto. Either way, a system with an issue/fault after only 2 years and one month is not of adequate quality.

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Either way, a system with an issue/fault after only 2 years and one month is not of adequate quality.

Agreed - but from the OP's perspective, is that down to the developer or the installer?

My money, as per my post yesterday, is on the developer.  I don't see where the contract exists between the OP and the installer.

So it is the developer's door I'd be knocking on very hard.


OP, did you try and get the boiler service within the first 12 months? Or did you just assume they couldn't service it due to Covid?

I fear one of the next things you might be up against is not having it serviced within 12 months, not just missing the two-year warranty deadline.

Another_Level

Is it definitely the central heating or hot water draw off pipes making the banging noise ? ideal have been out and said the appliance is ok. 

That leaves a lot of other avenues of inspection 

if not already mentioned, can you get your own independent heat/plumb expert in to assess the fault and issue a report. You may have some legal insurance cover  but you will need to pay for an expert witness report. 

It could be cheaper and less hassle just to get it sorted out yourself but during getting it sorted out yourself if  a history of errors are found then you have some evidence for a possible claim back payment.

jimbojambo1234

fezster said:

In order to move forwards, I think you need to find out what the problem is first. Either Google it and try some of the suggestions (eg. bleeding air from the system), or get a professional in to properly diagnose the issue and suggest a fix (you'll most likely have to pay for this). Then you can chase the installer and/or boiler manufacturer to try and get them to fix it.

I doubt the installer will be interested after the length of time which has passed. And most likely, the installation is where the problem resides. Which will probably mean you'll end up having to pay to get the problem fixed, unless the installer is somehow obliged to fix the problem (nhbc warranty?) 

Hi fezster, thanks for your reply. I remember trying to bleed the radiators a couple of times throughout the house but it did not work. Maybe worth another go. I remember the engineer putting into what he called "engineer mode" (I have googled and see this is usually called "service mode") and it/the pipes (not sure which exactly or what the difference is) was noise and the engineer commented on this and said it was "a bit concerning" at the time in case that is an indication of anything (as he said in his engineer's report, he thinks it is an install issue). 

Good point on the nhbc warranty, thanks, I'm not sure what exactly that covers but will have to look into it. I think you're right regarding the installer not being interested so maybe I will need to pay them/an independent to find out what is causing the noise and go from there.