Boiler and Noisy Pipes - Who is Responsible?

jimbojambo1234

NSG666 said:

From what you are now saying it appears that you have and never had any contract with the installer of the central heating system unless you find info to the contrary in the warranty you refer to.

Be straight with the developer and tell them when the symptoms first occurred and that rightly or wrongly you were going to flag it up at the first service which kept getting delayed by Ideal (or at least their service engineer). If they say tough it's down to you then ask them what they will do regards reimbursing you if you get your own engineer in to diagnose the cause and it turns out to be an installation issue. They may turn it round and say we'll send someone out but if it's not an installation issue we will charge you and that might be the best option.

For info I know someone who had a Worcester Bosch boiler fitted and had similar symptoms resulting in a visit from a WB engineer. After much head scratching he discovered that the flow and returns on the boiler had been connected the wrong way round (pump in the airing cupboard not a system boiler). This was quite clearly an installation issue and the installer had to rectify it. Not suggesting this is the cause of your symptoms but illustrating the kind of installation issue that can occur.

Hi NSG666, thanks for your reply. Since I moved into the house in June 2019, I have contacted the developer with any issues with plumbing and they have called out the installer/plumbing company. I assume I have a contract with the developer somewhere (the developer said the other day that my warranty ended in June).

I think I will need to do what you said in terms of mentioning when I first started hearing banging pipes when the temperature was above a certain temp and also mention that the Ideal service engineer said it was noisy when he put the boiler on service mode and see what the developer (who will pass on the message to the installer) and go from there. 

Thanks also for your example. Hopefully it is something hopefully relatively straight forward!

jimbojambo1234

cattom said:

but why do the pipes bang? if indeed it is the pipes. the boiler and pipe work in this place came here with noah and his ark, and they are still fine today. (touchwood). so surely it must just be an air lock or something straight forward.

Hi cattom, thanks for your reply. That's the next step, I think. Getting someone to diagnose the problem and go from there. The house was made just over two years ago and the noisy pipes I first started hearing when the temperature above a certain level in Jan 2020 so hopefully it will be something straight forward.

NSG666

Just seen your post ref trying to bleed radiators but could not get it to work. Can you elaborate on that? Does your boiler have a pressure gauge and if so what is it reading?

fezster

Do you have a magnetic filter on the system? If so, have you checked it?

If not, what is the colour of the water coming out of the radiators when you bleed them?

A build up of magnetite and/or a faulty/blocked pump could also be a cause of banging pipes. 

jimbojambo1234

Jeepers_Creepers said:

JJ, LegProt will first give you proper legal advice - eg, whether you have a claim/good chance at a claim - and will, if it's something straight-forward, advise how to proceed on this. (Eg, they might ask you to contact the 3rd party and just be more insistent, armed with the correct legal jargon, if they think that will do the trick.) For more complex issues, they will - if they are confident there's a greater than 50% chance (or thereabouts) of winning - take on the case. Ie, they would write using legal-speak to the housebuilder/installer, and explain what's going to happen if they don't sort themselves out...) Anyhoo, that's a moot point here if you don't have it. And they might, in any case, have just told you that you messed up by not registering the fault before the 2 years were up.

I would say, tho', that - if it's an installation fault - the installer will either put it right voluntarily and for no charge, or else you wouldn't have much trouble persuading them to do so. If it turns out to be a boiler issue, then I think there's a fair chance you could persuade Ideal to cover the parts at least. And a reasonable chance they'd cover it all since you had called them out (albeit for just a service) within the 2 years, but it's them (or C-19) that caused the delay. (I presume you would have brought the 'banging' to their attention?!)

So, since you now DO need to get someone out to (a) ID the cause and (b) hopefully effect a cure, I would personally suggest you ask the installer to do this. Why? Because they are familiar with the system, and also - if it's an installation issue - it shouldn't cost you a penny. If it's a boiler issue, you just cough up, and then tackle Ideal - after all, they supposedly checked it out first and claimed it was an installation fault. They messed up, so should morally recompense you.

If you, instead, go 'independent', then you'll have to pay for that assessment. You cannot go back to the installer and say "They found this - it's your fault, so come and fix it!", 'cos they will just reply, "You should have called us out for this, pal..."

And be totally upfront - explain that you are in a dilemma since Ideal say the boiler is fine, so you need to have the installation checked - and they are surely the best ones to do this. Make it clear that, if it ain't an installation fault, then of course you'll pay them for the repair.

Seems to me you should be ok either way - you are giving the installer a chance to sort it, and have already given the Ideal service fellow a chance for ditto. Either way, a system with an issue/fault after only 2 years and one month is not of adequate quality.

Hi JC, thanks for the reply. Thanks for the explaination on LegProt, always good to find out more about that. Maybe I can get that added to the house insurance or good info to know for the future where it sounds like it is probably worth getting. 

Indeed, I had planned on mentioning the banging to Ideal in the first service that I booked initially for June 2020 (which they delayed by a year). 

I think the next step will be to try and get the installer to take a look at it. As I am out of warranty with my developer (who, during the warranty period, would contact the installer/plumbing company with issues that were relevant to them) I assume the installer/plumbing company would want to charge to come out to take a look at the boiler/pipes. Hopefully they will find an issue and not just tell me there is nothing wrong.

jimbojambo1234

Section62 said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Either way, a system with an issue/fault after only 2 years and one month is not of adequate quality.

Agreed - but from the OP's perspective, is that down to the developer or the installer?

My money, as per my post yesterday, is on the developer.  I don't see where the contract exists between the OP and the installer.

So it is the developer's door I'd be knocking on very hard.


OP, did you try and get the boiler service within the first 12 months? Or did you just assume they couldn't service it due to Covid?

I fear one of the next things you might be up against is not having it serviced within 12 months, not just missing the two-year warranty deadline.

Hi Sectio62, thanks for your reply. I'm not 100% sure but I think the warranty was with the developer who, I assume, have an arrangement with the installer/plumbing company and get them out to do work as and when the residents report problems during the initial two years after they have bought a new build with them (I bought the house two years and one month ago). 

I did indeed book the service after the first 12 months (had to do this with Ideal to get the boiler warranty extended from 1 year to 2 years). I assume that I could get Ideal to send me evidence of this to send to my developer if needed. 

jimbojambo1234

Another_Level said:

Is it definitely the central heating or hot water draw off pipes making the banging noise ? ideal have been out and said the appliance is ok. 

That leaves a lot of other avenues of inspection 

if not already mentioned, can you get your own independent heat/plumb expert in to assess the fault and issue a report. You may have some legal insurance cover  but you will need to pay for an expert witness report. 

It could be cheaper and less hassle just to get it sorted out yourself but during getting it sorted out yourself if  a history of errors are found then you have some evidence for a possible claim back payment.

Hi Another_Level, thanks for your response. I'm not sure what exactly is causing the problem so maybe getting the installer/plumbing company out to take a look will be a route to getting the problem diagnosed. The service engineer put it on service mode and there was a lot of noise and the engineer said at the time that it was a "bit concerning" and mentioned in his report that he thought it was an install issue. I've noticed noisy pipes upstairs in the house when the temperature is above 23 degrees since Jan 2020. Weird how it didn't do this as soon as I started putting the temperature above this level just after I moved in (don't think it did, anyway, too long ago to remember). 

Indeed, I will need to get someone in to look at this. Thanks for the info on an expert witness report, I wasn't aware of that. Like you say, if I can prove that it is indeed an install error I can claim back payment so will continue to speak to the developer who will contact the installer and see what I get from that route initially. 

jimbojambo1234

fezster said:

Do you have a magnetic filter on the system? If so, have you checked it?

If not, what is the colour of the water coming out of the radiators when you bleed them?

A build up of magnetite and/or a faulty/blocked pump could also be a cause of banging pipes. 

Hi fezter, thanks. I'm not sure if I have a magnetic filter on the system. I just googled it but still not sure. Where is it most likely to be? 

Regarding the water from radiators, I remember it being clear when I last did it which was probably four or five months ago. 

[Deleted User]

Allow me to post my new build experience. The builder is responsible for ALL faults/snags for the first two years post legal completion. In any new build, it is likely that the builder will have employed a heating/plumbing sub contractor so any heating/plumbing faults will be cascaded down to that sub-contractor to fix. All boilers come with some form of warranty - usually 2 years or more- which covers the builder’s liability; ie, if there is a boiler fault then the builder will normally call out a manufacturer’s service representative. The NHBC warranty kicks in for years 3 to 10 but it mainly covers structural defects.

During the first Winter of use, the fan on my boiler became incredibly noisy. I contacted my builder who in turn called out his heating engineer. The engineer diagnosed a faulty fan and he notified Worcester Bosch who sent out one of their engineers. 

I appreciate that noisy pipes adds a further dimension to the problem. The key point is that within the first 2 years it is the builder’s responsibility to manage all repairs.

Jeepers_Creepers

I'd agree with that, and with Sect62 - your contract was with the builder, and they are the ones to contact in the first instance. They should pass this on to their installer.

Just be upfront - there is an issue, and you'd like it fixed. You totally understand it's out of warranty, and if it turns out to be a boiler fault, then of course you are liable to pay for the repair (tho' you will then tackle Ideal...).

If it turns out to be an installation issue, then no way on this planet are you morally - or, I suspect, legally - obliged to pay for this. If they insist, so you do have to, then it's PuP, and you start your claim.

I don't see any point in calling out a 3rd surveyor to investigate this just to write a report - that's just money spent which I doubt you'll recover.

Yes, LegProt should be on everyone's policy. Absolutely do this on renewal, if not before (tho' of course it won't cover retrospective issues). It's not even just stuff about the house - 15 years ago I used it to persuade a car dealer to compensate for a fault on a Bongo I'd bought on behalf of my niece. The dealer finally capitulated before action was started in earnest, but the point was that I'd gone through the correct process first, so LP immediately said "Yup - we'll take this on. Send us the info...". That was the final straw for the dealer. :-)