Boiler and Noisy Pipes - Who is Responsible?

jimbojambo1234

Jeepers_Creepers said:

I'd agree with that, and with Sect62 - your contract was with the builder, and they are the ones to contact in the first instance. They should pass this on to their installer.

Just be upfront - there is an issue, and you'd like it fixed. You totally understand it's out of warranty, and if it turns out to be a boiler fault, then of course you are liable to pay for the repair (tho' you will then tackle Ideal...).

If it turns out to be an installation issue, then no way on this planet are you morally - or, I suspect, legally - obliged to pay for this. If they insist, so you do have to, then it's PuP, and you start your claim.

I don't see any point in calling out a 3rd surveyor to investigate this just to write a report - that's just money spent which I doubt you'll recover.

Yes, LegProt should be on everyone's policy. Absolutely do this on renewal, if not before (tho' of course it won't cover retrospective issues). It's not even just stuff about the house - 15 years ago I used it to persuade a car dealer to compensate for a fault on a Bongo I'd bought on behalf of my niece. The dealer finally capitulated before action was started in earnest, but the point was that I'd gone through the correct process first, so LP immediately said "Yup - we'll take this on. Send us the info...". That was the final straw for the dealer. :-)

Hi JC, thanks for your message. I'll do what you suggest. Contact the developer tomorrow to say that I started hearing noisy pipes in Jan 2020 and then lockdown happened, thought that Ideal would be able to sort it when they did in the originally booked June 2020 service but then had to wait a year for that and they said it's an install issue. 

The developer (Abbey Developments) didn't accept the engineer's report when I sent them it last week they were looking for the service record which the engineer said was "All OK" so the developer may refer back to that and say that there is no issue in their eyes.

So, I will mention that, like you say, there is a fault and I would like it looked into and appreciate that it's technically out of warranty. I'm guessing that the installer will refuse to come out, maybe even if I offer to pay for an initial look (if/when they refuse to come out to take a look I guess I then will have to PuP and then late a claim later, as you suggest), in that instance I guess I will need to look for an independent boiler engineer/plumber (not even sure which at this point). 

Thanks for the info on LegProt, will certainly get that this year. Am guessing that it won't cover any of this if I add it now though. 

jimbojambo1234

Dolor said:

Allow me to post my new build experience. The builder is responsible for ALL faults/snags for the first two years post legal completion. In any new build, it is likely that the builder will have employed a heating/plumbing sub contractor so any heating/plumbing faults will be cascaded down to that sub-contractor to fix. All boilers come with some form of warranty - usually 2 years or more- which covers the builder’s liability; ie, if there is a boiler fault then the builder will normally call out a manufacturer’s service representative. The NHBC warranty kicks in for years 3 to 10 but it mainly covers structural defects.

During the first Winter of use, the fan on my boiler became incredibly noisy. I contacted my builder who in turn called out his heating engineer. The engineer diagnosed a faulty fan and he notified Worcester Bosch who sent out one of their engineers. 

I appreciate that noisy pipes adds a further dimension to the problem. The key point is that within the first 2 years it is the builder’s responsibility to manage all repairs.

Hi Dolor, thanks for your reply. Yes, pretty much the same experience as me. In the first two years the developer (Abbey Developments) would be my first port of call and would then contact the installer/plumbing company for issues relating to them and then that company would contact me to arrange a day to visit.

With things like the boilers (and other things such as the oven, washing machine and dishwasher), I had to register warranties directly with the manufacturer and would speak directly to them. 

The biggest complication, it feels like to me, is the period of lockdown time that we went through and that I couldn't do anything to get anyone in during this time (and didn't want to anyway to avoid Covid). It's frustrating but also unsurprising that, whilst a year ago, all of these companies were spitting out "We're in this together" type messaging but when it comes to changing their policies and showing empathy now that things are seemingly changing/getting better (?) they are unwillingly to show flexibility and take action.

Ideal had the cheek to say to me that they did the service out of the warranty period and extended my warranty from 1 year to 2 years without the 1st year's service being done even though the deal in the 1st year's service was delayed by just over a year due to them continually cancelling. Sorry for the rant!

Thanks again for all of your replies.

Jeepers_Creepers

jimbojambo1234 said:

Hi JC, thanks for your message. I'll do what you suggest. Contact the developer tomorrow to say that I started hearing noisy pipes in Jan 2020 and then lockdown happened, thought that Ideal would be able to sort it when they did in the originally booked June 2020 service but then had to wait a year for that and they said it's an install issue. 

The developer (Abbey Developments) didn't accept the engineer's report when I sent them it last week they were looking for the service record which the engineer said was "All OK" so the developer may refer back to that and say that there is no issue in their eyes.

So, I will mention that, like you say, there is a fault and I would like it looked into and appreciate that it's technically out of warranty. I'm guessing that the installer will refuse to come out, maybe even if I offer to pay for an initial look (if/when they refuse to come out to take a look I guess I then will have to PuP and then late a claim later, as you suggest), in that instance I guess I will need to look for an independent boiler engineer/plumber (not even sure which at this point). 

Thanks for the info on LegProt, will certainly get that this year. Am guessing that it won't cover any of this if I add it now though. 

Doesn't matter what Abbey say, you still want their installer to come out and fix the issue as if you are just another customer with a bangin' boiler. You make it clear that of course you'll pay if it wasn't an installation fault. "I'm trying to be totally upfront and fair here; if it isn't an installation issue, then of course I don't expect them to fix it for free! However, if it is, then obviously I would hope they'd offer to do the right thing." (Leave out the "I'll make darned sure they do...")

If they refuse to come out, then you tell them, "That's disappointing, as I'm now going to have to find someone else to fix it - I'd rather you had done this since you know how it's laid out. Obviously, if it turns out to have been 'installer error', then I'll be coming back to them to make a claim, and I am 100% confident I will win. I'm sure you are curious about this issue too, so I promise to let you know the outcome either way."

You ideally want this communication to be done in some evidenced way, so you can prove - if needed - that you gave them a fair chance to sort it. So I would email them about this - and I think it'll focus their mind too if they know their refusal is laid out in black and white.

Yes, taking out LP now won't help for this case, but is really worthwhile for the future. I mean, just look at the hassle you're having already :-)

jimbojambo1234

Jeepers_Creepers said:

jimbojambo1234 said:

Hi JC, thanks for your message. I'll do what you suggest. Contact the developer tomorrow to say that I started hearing noisy pipes in Jan 2020 and then lockdown happened, thought that Ideal would be able to sort it when they did in the originally booked June 2020 service but then had to wait a year for that and they said it's an install issue. 

The developer (Abbey Developments) didn't accept the engineer's report when I sent them it last week they were looking for the service record which the engineer said was "All OK" so the developer may refer back to that and say that there is no issue in their eyes.

So, I will mention that, like you say, there is a fault and I would like it looked into and appreciate that it's technically out of warranty. I'm guessing that the installer will refuse to come out, maybe even if I offer to pay for an initial look (if/when they refuse to come out to take a look I guess I then will have to PuP and then late a claim later, as you suggest), in that instance I guess I will need to look for an independent boiler engineer/plumber (not even sure which at this point). 

Thanks for the info on LegProt, will certainly get that this year. Am guessing that it won't cover any of this if I add it now though. 

Doesn't matter what Abbey say, you still want their installer to come out and fix the issue as if you are just another customer with a bangin' boiler. You make it clear that of course you'll pay if it wasn't an installation fault. "I'm trying to be totally upfront and fair here; if it isn't an installation issue, then of course I don't expect them to fix it for free! However, if it is, then obviously I would hope they'd offer to do the right thing." (Leave out the "I'll make darned sure they do...")

If they refuse to come out, then you tell them, "That's disappointing, as I'm now going to have to find someone else to fix it - I'd rather you had done this since you know how it's laid out. Obviously, if it turns out to have been 'installer error', then I'll be coming back to them to make a claim, and I am 100% confident I will win. I'm sure you are curious about this issue too, so I promise to let you know the outcome either way."

You ideally want this communication to be done in some evidenced way, so you can prove - if needed - that you gave them a fair chance to sort it. So I would email them about this - and I think it'll focus their mind too if they know their refusal is laid out in black and white.

Yes, taking out LP now won't help for this case, but is really worthwhile for the future. I mean, just look at the hassle you're having already :-)

Hi JC, thanks for your response. I will go down your suggested route and see what they say to the initial message. This way, I'm giving them the option to diagnose and potentially fix an install error especially after a year of delays with things related to this due to a national lockdown.

Thanks again for your extremely helpful advice. 

jimbojambo1234

NSG666 said:

Just seen your post ref trying to bleed radiators but could not get it to work. Can you elaborate on that? Does your boiler have a pressure gauge and if so what is it reading?

Hi NSG666, thanks for the reply. I just checked the pressure gauge on the boiler and it is about three quarters of the way between 0 and 1 so roughly 0.75. On a couple of occasions the boiler has been at 0 and I had to move the valves so that the pressure went up again (not sure of the technical term for that process!) but nothing dramatic in that sense. 

Only other odd thing with regards to the noise and this boiler is that the boiler and/or the pipes were loud when the service engineer had is on service mode but not sure what exactly he was doing when he had it on that mode. 

southcoastrgi

Some slight confusion in this thread, your boiler will only come with 12 months warentee if the boiler had A. not been registered within 30 days of fitting or hasn't had a service, so for the ideal engineer to say I've extended it out of the goodness of my heart is nonsense,

the installer will have to warentee his work for a period of time normally 12 months however the repair of the boiler whether they supplied it or not will be the manufacturer as soon as it's been registered, you could have got a local RGI to service the boiler so I'm not sure why you booked or waited for ideal, personally I haven't stopped working in peoples houses so really it's a poor excuse why you haven't reported this to the developers or the installer, when the service was done were your trv's turned right up ? Do you have an auto bypass fitted ?

you could upload pics of your boiler & pipework & a short video of the noise it's making 

NSG666

Service Mode - as far as I know that just makes the boiler run at full power so the flue gasses can be analysed so nothing too mysterious there just simulating a real life situation . Just before you commit to getting someone to look at it I think it would be worth bleeding all the radiators and towel rad and top the pressure up to 1 bar. Open up all the TRVs to max and then crank the heating up and see whether it does it. If it still does then you're no worse off than you are now and definitely need someone to sort it.

Just as a matter of interest did you have anything done to the heating system or controls or move the location of the thermostat just before this noise started happening? e.g. wifi thermostat or rads removed for decorating?

Jeepers_Creepers

southcoastrgi said:

the installer will have to warentee his work for a period of time normally 12 months however the repair of the boiler whether they supplied it or not will be the manufacturer as soon as it's been registered, you could have got a local RGI to service the boiler so I'm not sure why you booked or waited for ideal, personally I haven't stopped working in peoples houses so really it's a poor excuse why you haven't reported this to the developers or the installer, when the service was done were your trv's turned right up ? Do you have an auto bypass fitted ?

you could upload pics of your boiler & pipework & a short video of the noise it's making 

A tad unfair, I think, SC.

JJ is a laypeep, and caught in this situation during the first or second lockdowns - the 'big' ones, the ones we all took seriously. His system was installed and he was given a 2-year warranty.

He called up the proper Ideal-authorised service fellow for the first annual service, just as any conscientious fellow should. That service agent couldn't attend, citing the lockdown, but he was presumably told they'd be out as soon as they can.

And you reckon JJ should have started phoning round other RGI's instead? Well, yes, possibly. But not necessarily. This was during a period when there was much confusion, and a lot of people making a lot of compromises until things got back to normal. We know this is the case - extensions to all sorts of far more important situations, some of which would normally have broken laws - GS cert'ing of rental properties, renewing driving licences, that sort of stuff. Having a boiler given its annual service is a trivial matter compared to these! And we all know that even trying to contact companies and organisations during that time (and even now) is fraught with huge delays due to staff shortages. Although 'foolish' (hardly), I can totally understand JJ thinking "I'll sort all this out when the LD is over and the Ideal fellow comes out."

Regardless of whether JJ reported the actual issue within the 2-year period as he 'should' have done - he missed it by one month... - IF this issue turns out to have been due to an installation error, then the installer/builder will be fixing it for free. Why? Because they are liable - it's them wot dun the mistake. IF this turns out to be a boiler fault, then Ideal will be covering JJ's bill. Why? Because their service agent came out, acknowledged the fault, carried out tests, and then claimed it wasn't the boiler - and that's why JJ is going back to the installer for a fix instead. If the Ideal SA got this wrong, then they are liable.

There might be a slightly grey area due to the timescales (but with the mitigation of C-19), but I am telling you that I would be 99.999%* confident that these parties would pay up as they can be shown to be liable with either outcome. They would be very foolish - and unethical - to try and evade this responsibility. And they'd fail.

Hey, JJ, do you have an auto- bypass fitted? (lawdie... :-)  )

* and you can add a 0.001 to that.

jimbojambo1234

NSG666 said:

Service Mode - as far as I know that just makes the boiler run at full power so the flue gasses can be analysed so nothing too mysterious there just simulating a real life situation . Just before you commit to getting someone to look at it I think it would be worth bleeding all the radiators and towel rad and top the pressure up to 1 bar. Open up all the TRVs to max and then crank the heating up and see whether it does it. If it still does then you're no worse off than you are now and definitely need someone to sort it.

Just as a matter of interest did you have anything done to the heating system or controls or move the location of the thermostat just before this noise started happening? e.g. wifi thermostat or rads removed for decorating?

Hi NSG666, thanks for the message. I will give that a go and will record a video of the pipes making a noise in case it helps in any way in the future. I haven't done it for a little while as I haven't used the heating so worth making sure they still make the noise (although assume they will as they did during the service at the start of this month). 

To answer your question, nothing changed in relation to just before the noise started happening. Pretty sure on that but will keep thinking in case I remember anything. 

jimbojambo1234

southcoastrgi said:

Some slight confusion in this thread, your boiler will only come with 12 months warentee if the boiler had A. not been registered within 30 days of fitting or hasn't had a service, so for the ideal engineer to say I've extended it out of the goodness of my heart is nonsense,

the installer will have to warentee his work for a period of time normally 12 months however the repair of the boiler whether they supplied it or not will be the manufacturer as soon as it's been registered, you could have got a local RGI to service the boiler so I'm not sure why you booked or waited for ideal, personally I haven't stopped working in peoples houses so really it's a poor excuse why you haven't reported this to the developers or the installer, when the service was done were your trv's turned right up ? Do you have an auto bypass fitted ?

you could upload pics of your boiler & pipework & a short video of the noise it's making 

Hi southcoastrgi, thanks for your response. The boiler had an initial 12 months warranty with an extension if I had it serviced within 12 months. I booked and paid for this within this 12 months and then Ideal cancelled it but said as they cancelled they would extend it for another 12 months. They kept cancelling until doing this first service 

I did not want anyone in my house during the lockdown last year and even this year. Even now it will take a lot to let someone in my house, especially with cases rising but that's another issue. In hindsight, the only thing I would have done differently is inform the developer of the banging pipes within the two year warranty period. I wrongly assumed that Ideal would be able to fix it so this is a learning lesson for me. 

Thanks for your point on the video and pics, I'll try and do this when I test that it's still making the noise again.