Boiler and Noisy Pipes - Who is Responsible?

jimbojambo1234

Two years ago I bought a new build house and about 15 months ago the pipes started banging. Then lockdown happened and I wasn't able to get anyone in to look at it. I booked my boiler service with Ideal Boilers for June 2020 and they kept delaying it and it eventually happened (first ever service on the boiler) this month (July 2021). 

The engineer mentioned that the boiler was loud and in the engineer's report it says that the pipework system is banging when the boiler gets hot and that he suspects that it is an install issue and that the boiler is loud due to it. 

I had a two year warranty with the plumbing company (who installed the boiler) on the house which expired in June this year and my warranty with Ideal also expired in June. If I had received the service when it should have been done last year I would have been able to get the plumbing company in without paying. The plumbing company say that they do not think it is an install issue as the pipework was not banging at the time of install. They're both essentially saying that it is the other company's problem.

Who is best placed to fix this kind of problem? What options do I have? 

Thanks in advance.

southcoastrgi

The likelihood is the pipework under the floor is plastic so unlikely to be the pipework, however I bet you have a logic boiler which imo are crap which is why you only get a 2 year warentee which is the minimum they can offer 

hannaomar121

I live in the basement floor of an old brownstone. The heat comes via a pipe about 5 inches wide that is suspended off the tin ceiling. when that thing would go off, I would wake up with my heart pounding. Complained to the landlords (it's just me and them in the building) and they gave me some nonsense advice about how a plumber who had come to fix the boiler had "stolen" the key that was used to fix it, and they couldn't find a replacement. Naturally, when their family from out-of-town came to stay for a week, it miraculously was repaired.

hannaomar121

I live in the basement floor of an old brownstone. The heat comes via a pipe about 5 inches wide that is suspended off the tin ceiling. when that thing would go off, I would wake up with my heart pounding. Complained to the landlords (it's just me and them in the building) and they gave me some nonsense advice about how a plumber who had come to fix the boiler had "stolen" the key that was used to fix it, and they couldn't find a replacement. Naturally, when their family from out-of-town came to stay for a week, it miraculously was repaired.

NSG666

The engineer's report sounds a bit vague and I would have expected them to confirm that that the boiler is not faulty and to do that they might have to find out what the problem is. "Suspect it's an install issue" is the type of diagnosis you might expect on this forum but not from an 'engineer' who's seen it. Get back on to Ideal but also speak with the plumbing co and try to get them to commit to rectifying any install issues should they be found. If Ideal won't play ball try to get them to commit to refunding your costs should an independent engineer discover a boiler fault. Good luck.

Jeepers_Creepers

jimbojambo1234 said:

Two years ago I bought a new build house and about 15 months ago the pipes started banging. Then lockdown happened and I wasn't able to get anyone in to look at it. I booked my boiler service with Ideal Boilers for June 2020 and they kept delaying it and it eventually happened (first ever service on the boiler) this month (July 2021). 

The engineer mentioned that the boiler was loud and in the engineer's report it says that the pipework system is banging when the boiler gets hot and that he suspects that it is an install issue and that the boiler is loud due to it. 

I had a two year warranty with the plumbing company (who installed the boiler) on the house which expired in June this year and my warranty with Ideal also expired in June. If I had received the service when it should have been done last year I would have been able to get the plumbing company in without paying. The plumbing company say that they do not think it is an install issue as the pipework was not banging at the time of install. They're both essentially saying that it is the other company's problem.

Who is best placed to fix this kind of problem? What options do I have? 

Thanks in advance.

Hi JJ.

The installer is a different person to the 'engineer' service fellow? And the service fellow was booked via Ideal for the (delayed) annual service? And the service fellow is blaming the installation and not the actual boiler?

First thing, we've all been a bit stuffed by delays due to C-19 (actually, I haven't - but hey :-)  ), and most services have shown some consideration due to this, allowing additional time in which to get things done; gas safety checks for rented houses, expiry dates for driving licences, etc. In essence, if C-19 can reasonably be shown to have caused a delay, then usually there are considerations given for this by most companies.

The problem with your CH is made a bit trickier by there being two groups involved - one with responsibility only for the boiler, and t'other for the installation.

I think there are two things I'd suggest you do; the first is to email Ideal and explain - in detail - the symptoms you are having, when - exactly - the noise happens, what - exactly - the noise sounds like, where - exactly - it comes from, anything else - eg a flickering pressure gauge, and explain what their authorised service fellow said, and your dilemma (through no fault of your own) regarding the now-just-expired warranty. Ideal get slatted on here, and I have no idea whether this is warranted - but I guess there must be something behind some comments made about some of their models. What I have also read, tho', is that they are a very good customer-orientated company, so I would expect a helpful reply from them. See what they suggest first - I'd hope they'd be able to confirm or rebut what their engineer reported - it either 'could' be the boiler or 'is' the installation. For the former, I'd hope they'd offer to have another look, and sort it. For free.

Failing a satisfactory outcome, the other thing to do is to ask the service fellow to put in writing (sounds as tho' they have, in their report?) that they consider it an installation fault. Armed with that, you approach the installer and ask them to come out and investigate. Again, you explain that the issue occurred well within their 2-year warranty, but that you weren't able to have them out due to lockdown. (Did you contact them at all about this issue before the 2 years were up?)

If the latter are adamant that the installation is no longer within their warranty, then I guess you have two options; one is to count your losses and just get a third-party out to fix it, and put it all down to a bad C-19 experience. The other (recommend) option, is to say to the installer, "Ok, I'm not at all happy about you saying it's no longer under warranty, because if it is an installation issue, then it doesn't actually matter when the symptoms arose - the cause would have present from the day of installation. BUT, hey, I still need to have it fixed, so I still need you to come out and sort it." When they do so - and hopefully they do fix it - if the issue was an installation 'error', then you ask them to reconsider the bill. If they don't, you pay, but write 'paid under protest' on the invoice and follow this up with an email to say you are now considering a Small Claims under the CRA 2015;

15. Installation as part of conformity of the goods with the contract

(1)Goods do not conform to a contract to supply goods if—

(a)installation of the goods forms part of the contract,
(b)the goods are installed by the trader or under the trader’s responsibility, and
(c)the goods are installed incorrectly.

(You need to check for yourself that this section does mean what I interpret it as meaning.)

If they don't crumble, then you pursue it - MoneyClaim.org.

Do you have LegProt on your house insurance? You DO?! Why didn't you say so - 'twould have saved me a lot of writing...

And, when they do come out to fix it, how will you know what the issue was - do you think they'll be upfront if it was their fault? All I can suggest there is, try and be aware of what it is they are checking at all times, and home in when it seems as tho' they've tracked the problem; this will need forensic skills from you. If you hear a muttered "Ah! Got you! You b..." then, you know.... Or, just show curiosity as many (annoying) customers often do - follow them a round and keep asking! Actually, make "Ready for a cuppa now?!" part of your excuse.

I don't want to do them a disservice; they may well turn out to be an honest company, full of integrity, and if they find it is their cause, would be frank and open about it - and will refuse all payment. But, just in case...

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

(Did you contact them at all about this issue before the 2 years were up?)

^This.

It might be too late for the OP, but with anything that has a warranty and requires occasional servicing (boilers/cars/white goods) it is never a good idea to leave known problems until a service happening right at the end of the warranty period.  In addition to the risk of the supplier wriggling out of the warranty, there's also a risk of them introducing new faults as part of the rectification work, and you are in a stronger position to get those fixed if there is still some time to run on the warranty.

OP, was the boiler installation organised by yourself, or was it by the developer as part of the build?  If it was the developer then I'd be complaining to them as well. Their design of the system is potentially one cause of the problem, if not, you should at least explore what your contract with them says about the heating system.

jimbojambo1234

southcoastrgi said:

The likelihood is the pipework under the floor is plastic so unlikely to be the pipework, however I bet you have a logic boiler which imo are crap which is why you only get a 2 year warentee which is the minimum they can offer 

Sure is a logic one.

jimbojambo1234

hannaomar121 said:

I live in the basement floor of an old brownstone. The heat comes via a pipe about 5 inches wide that is suspended off the tin ceiling. when that thing would go off, I would wake up with my heart pounding. Complained to the landlords (it's just me and them in the building) and they gave me some nonsense advice about how a plumber who had come to fix the boiler had "stolen" the key that was used to fix it, and they couldn't find a replacement. Naturally, when their family from out-of-town came to stay for a week, it miraculously was repaired.

Sorry to hear that you had that! Glad that it's better now though. 

jimbojambo1234

NSG666 said:

The engineer's report sounds a bit vague and I would have expected them to confirm that that the boiler is not faulty and to do that they might have to find out what the problem is. "Suspect it's an install issue" is the type of diagnosis you might expect on this forum but not from an 'engineer' who's seen it. Get back on to Ideal but also speak with the plumbing co and try to get them to commit to rectifying any install issues should they be found. If Ideal won't play ball try to get them to commit to refunding your costs should an independent engineer discover a boiler fault. Good luck.

Thanks for your reply. I spoke to Ideal again today and they are still stating that it is an install issue based on the engineer's report saying that he "suspects an install issue". Ideal said that they could send someone to take another look at a reduced rate of £149 which is nice of them. They said that there is nothing more that they can do though and that I should find a local installer to look at the issue. 

The plumbing company, via my building developer, asked if it was a recent issue and do not believe that this would be an install error as if the pipework was banging at time of install they would have been notified. I haven't told them this yet but the pipework has been banging since Jan 2020 but I couldn't get anyone out due to lockdown. I may go back and tell them this and see what they say but I am out of warranty with the plumbing company so assume that they will want to charge.

jimbojambo1234

Jeepers_Creepers said:

jimbojambo1234 said:

Two years ago I bought a new build house and about 15 months ago the pipes started banging. Then lockdown happened and I wasn't able to get anyone in to look at it. I booked my boiler service with Ideal Boilers for June 2020 and they kept delaying it and it eventually happened (first ever service on the boiler) this month (July 2021). 

The engineer mentioned that the boiler was loud and in the engineer's report it says that the pipework system is banging when the boiler gets hot and that he suspects that it is an install issue and that the boiler is loud due to it. 

I had a two year warranty with the plumbing company (who installed the boiler) on the house which expired in June this year and my warranty with Ideal also expired in June. If I had received the service when it should have been done last year I would have been able to get the plumbing company in without paying. The plumbing company say that they do not think it is an install issue as the pipework was not banging at the time of install. They're both essentially saying that it is the other company's problem.

Who is best placed to fix this kind of problem? What options do I have? 

Thanks in advance.

Hi JJ.

The installer is a different person to the 'engineer' service fellow? And the service fellow was booked via Ideal for the (delayed) annual service? And the service fellow is blaming the installation and not the actual boiler?

First thing, we've all been a bit stuffed by delays due to C-19 (actually, I haven't - but hey :-)  ), and most services have shown some consideration due to this, allowing additional time in which to get things done; gas safety checks for rented houses, expiry dates for driving licences, etc. In essence, if C-19 can reasonably be shown to have caused a delay, then usually there are considerations given for this by most companies.

The problem with your CH is made a bit trickier by there being two groups involved - one with responsibility only for the boiler, and t'other for the installation.

I think there are two things I'd suggest you do; the first is to email Ideal and explain - in detail - the symptoms you are having, when - exactly - the noise happens, what - exactly - the noise sounds like, where - exactly - it comes from, anything else - eg a flickering pressure gauge, and explain what their authorised service fellow said, and your dilemma (through no fault of your own) regarding the now-just-expired warranty. Ideal get slatted on here, and I have no idea whether this is warranted - but I guess there must be something behind some comments made about some of their models. What I have also read, tho', is that they are a very good customer-orientated company, so I would expect a helpful reply from them. See what they suggest first - I'd hope they'd be able to confirm or rebut what their engineer reported - it either 'could' be the boiler or 'is' the installation. For the former, I'd hope they'd offer to have another look, and sort it. For free.

Failing a satisfactory outcome, the other thing to do is to ask the service fellow to put in writing (sounds as tho' they have, in their report?) that they consider it an installation fault. Armed with that, you approach the installer and ask them to come out and investigate. Again, you explain that the issue occurred well within their 2-year warranty, but that you weren't able to have them out due to lockdown. (Did you contact them at all about this issue before the 2 years were up?)

If the latter are adamant that the installation is no longer within their warranty, then I guess you have two options; one is to count your losses and just get a third-party out to fix it, and put it all down to a bad C-19 experience. The other (recommend) option, is to say to the installer, "Ok, I'm not at all happy about you saying it's no longer under warranty, because if it is an installation issue, then it doesn't actually matter when the symptoms arose - the cause would have present from the day of installation. BUT, hey, I still need to have it fixed, so I still need you to come out and sort it." When they do so - and hopefully they do fix it - if the issue was an installation 'error', then you ask them to reconsider the bill. If they don't, you pay, but write 'paid under protest' on the invoice and follow this up with an email to say you are now considering a Small Claims under the CRA 2015;

15. Installation as part of conformity of the goods with the contract

(1)Goods do not conform to a contract to supply goods if—

(a)installation of the goods forms part of the contract,
(b)the goods are installed by the trader or under the trader’s responsibility, and
(c)the goods are installed incorrectly.

(You need to check for yourself that this section does mean what I interpret it as meaning.)

If they don't crumble, then you pursue it - MoneyClaim.org.

Do you have LegProt on your house insurance? You DO?! Why didn't you say so - 'twould have saved me a lot of writing...

And, when they do come out to fix it, how will you know what the issue was - do you think they'll be upfront if it was their fault? All I can suggest there is, try and be aware of what it is they are checking at all times, and home in when it seems as tho' they've tracked the problem; this will need forensic skills from you. If you hear a muttered "Ah! Got you! You b..." then, you know.... Or, just show curiosity as many (annoying) customers often do - follow them a round and keep asking! Actually, make "Ready for a cuppa now?!" part of your excuse.

I don't want to do them a disservice; they may well turn out to be an honest company, full of integrity, and if they find it is their cause, would be frank and open about it - and will refuse all payment. But, just in case...

Thanks for your reply. The installing company is different to the boiler company (Ideal). I booked an annual service with Ideal for June 2020 my first one which only took place in July 2021 due to them continuing to cancel it (often the afternoon before the day of the service was due to take place). Ideal are saying it's a service issue due to their engineer (which was actually a company different from Ideal as Ideal outsource services when they cannot do them all apparently) stating that he "suspects an install issue". 

I phoned Ideal again to state what the install company said (that they do not think it's an install issue, essentially) but Ideal have said that there is no more that they can do (customer service guy today even said that they did the service, which I paid for over a year ago, when it was out of warranty which is ridiculous as it was so late due to them). They suggested that I find a local installer look at the noise. They said that if I want another engineer from Ideal to have a look for a second opinion that they would charge me a reduced fee of £149 which is nice of them. I politely refused this.

The pipes have been banging when they are above a certain temperature since Jan 2020 (about 7 months after I moved in) but I haven't mentioned this to them yet due to lockdown. I mistakenly thought that Ideal may be able to fix it when they did their scheduled service in June 2020 which never happened so neve mentioned this to the plumbing company. I also had bigger concerns of just avoiding covid and so didn't want anyone in the house (well, we wasn't allowed for a long time last year). 

As I didn't mention this issue before my warranty was over I'm screwed though, right? 

Thanks also for your advice on Small Claims, I learnt a lot from reading all of that and feels like that is currently the most likely route at the moment. I will tell the housing developer to pass on my message that the pipes have been noisy above a certain temperature since Jan 2020 and go from there. I will probably need to get them out at some point after that and will see what they think is the problem. Will then use your advice regarding paying/making a claim.