Are Royal Mint Gold collectors coins classed as savings?

justwhat

HollyNW said:

Under a freedom of information request the DWP said bullion coins are classed as savings.

The link does not say bullion is savings, it more or less says it will be assessed at time of claim. (probably taking other factors into consideration) . intention and history would be the big deciding factor.

As an example would not/should not be classed as savings  " My great grandmother left me a half sovereign charm bracelet and a 1/10 krugerrand  bracelet"  

Second example -  Every year for last 20 year i buy myself a Rolex watch to celebrate my birthday sometimes gold sometimes SS. That would be a collection and a personal possession. 

Grumpy_chap

I have been reading this thread with interest but not commented as I do not know the answer.  I hoped to gain an understanding, but it looks as though no-one here can give a definitive comment and it may need to go to a DM.

As I understand it, the OP has a small number of coins with nominal face value, say £5.  Each of the coins may have a sale value that could be realised, say £100 to £250 typically.  My understanding is that the total value of the coins, even at potential sale value is still a modest sum in total and not life-changing wealth.  There was a comment that some of these types of coins can be worth grand sums (£60k was mentioned), which would be life-changing wealth - I don't think that was the case for the OP.

However, this might change things:

HollyNW said:

Just really hard to find a definition before you do something, after you’ve bought them it’s too late. And you can’t really declare something before you’ve bought them.

The following links gives indication of what is (and is not) savings:
https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/how-do-savings-and-lump-sum-pay-outs-affect-benefits#what-counts-as-savings
The basis of this thread seems to be around whether the coins are classed as "personal possessions, such as jewellery" and therefore not savings for UC assessment.  That question remains unanswered.
However, the link above also states further on that buying possessions which are excluded from means testing may be considered as deprivation of assets.  That is something the OP needs to give consideration to if intending to acquire more coins with a sale value in excess of face value.

HollyNW

Thanks Grumpy, that sums it up really well. It seems i may only be able to find an answer when I actually have bought coins that will take me over the £6K threshold (including other savings). Then I can write for a decision.

But if I know that buying the coins will potentially  result in reductions to benefits I wouldn’t buy them in the first place, as I’d then have to sell them again or take a loss each week for potentially years.

So it seems like I can’t take the risk and carry on adding to my currently little coin collection. I’ve been quite enjoying reading up, following coin sets and watching YouTube vids.

Although that link as to what is classed as savings…I’d personally say collectors rare proof coins aren’t a form of easily accessible money. Sure, you could find a buyer if you want to sell a coin for 10% of its actual worth, or sell it based purely on its gold or silver value…

But finding a collector willing to pay its estimated value at auction isn’t what I’d call easily accessible money. That’s just my opinion though ha.

And given that I would have no plans to sell them if it didn’t affect any benefits, I would feel they’re personal possessions. I’d be buying them as a hobby based on my interest in them over the past year. My TV set could be classed as an easily sellable asset, but that is a personal possession , the coins are the same to me, they sit in their little boxes on a shelf. I wouldn’t declare my TV set as ‘other savings’ as it’s not an easily accessible forum of money. But it’s probably a lot easier to sell a TV set then a limited edition collectors coin. So why would proof collectors coins be different and have to be declared as an easily accessed form of money? I do waffle a bit sorry ha

JustWhat, yes I did clarify and correct myself later, the freedom of information request says it needs to be referred to a decision maker, which didn’t really answer the original freedom of information request. It’s kinda not giving a definitive answer.

HollyNW

Just one other point Grumpy and I know I’m dragging a thread on and on…

But you mention deprivation of capital? I know how that works as I got an inheritance 2 years back, I used it to buy a house and furniture, I had to write to the DWP regularly as my saving dipped each month.

But once you’re under the £6K, then surely buying silly items isn’t deprivation of capital as you’re under the £6K anyway. If I had £5900 in savings, had a forthcoming benefits payment, so I went out and bought some Botox treatment,isn’t it irrelevant whether I’d wasted my money as all the time I would have been under £6K? Even though you could say I got such treatment to keep me under the limit? My point being, you can waste your money in any way you wish as long as you remain under the £6K?

So buying coins while I’m under £6K, that will gradually over time push me over £6K, wasn’t deprivation of capital in the first place as I wasn’t over £6K?

Its all jolly complicated, I just have a complete fear of life in general and doing anything wrong or participating in life.

vacheron

HollyNW said:

Just one other point Grumpy and I know I’m dragging a thread on and on…

But you mention deprivation of capital? I know how that works as I got an inheritance 2 years back, I used it to buy a house and furniture, I had to write to the DWP regularly as my saving dipped each month.

But once you’re under the £6K, then surely buying silly items isn’t deprivation of capital as you’re under the £6K anyway. If I had £5900 in savings, had a forthcoming benefits payment, so I went out and bought some Botox treatment,isn’t it irrelevant whether I’d wasted my money as all the time I would have been under £6K? Even though you could say I got such treatment to keep me under the limit? My point being, you can waste your money in any way you wish as long as you remain under the £6K?

So buying coins while I’m under £6K, that will gradually over time push me over £6K, wasn’t deprivation of capital in the first place as I wasn’t over £6K?

Its all jolly complicated, I just have a complete fear of life in general and doing anything wrong or participating in life.

I would strongly disagree here (and so would the government I hope). 

Once you are not relying on benefits AT ALL, then you can do what you want with your savings, but ESA is not fully withdrawn until you have £16000 in savings. The spirit of the rules being that if your LIVING COSTS are reducing your capital, the government will provide increasing amounts of assistance as your savings are slowly eroded.

Therefore, until you have £16,000 in savings and receive no ESA whatsoever, you are still using taxpayers money to subsidise the purchase of collectable trinkets for yourself (or botox to use your example) rather than using it for "living costs", (housing and furniture being two potentially justifiable examples as you described).

Just ask yourself, it it went to court, how could someone successfully argue that they needed state benefits when they have surplus cash to spend on cosmetic surgery or coin collections? 

I was sympathetic to your problem back on page one, but the more hypothetical all your scenarios become, the more clear your motives seem to be.

HollyNW

Geez, I didn’t say I was personally off for Botox to keep savings under £6K. Wind your neck in and stop resorting to personal insults from your keyboard please.

I used it an as example of someone clearly wasting money to say that the rules for deprivation of capital don’t apply if your under the £6K. People do waste money when they’re under that threshold, Go above that, and you would need to write to the DWP and show what you’ve spent your money on. That does NOT mean that’s what I want to do!! I was responding to someone who posed the question that deprivation of capital rules may apply when you’re under £6K. Many people waste money on drugs, they don’t fall under those deprivation rules if they only have limited savings. I guess to you I’m now advocating snorting cocaine to reduce your capital.

If you think I was personally talking about seriously getting Botox to reduce savings, then I really can’t help you and your moralising on my ‘motives’ is for you to deal with.

Grumpy_chap

HollyNW said:

Just one other point Grumpy and I know I’m dragging a thread on and on…

But you mention deprivation of capital? I know how that works as I got an inheritance 2 years back, I used it to buy a house and furniture, I had to write to the DWP regularly as my saving dipped each month.

But once you’re under the £6K, then surely buying silly items isn’t deprivation of capital as you’re under the £6K anyway. If I had £5900 in savings, had a forthcoming benefits payment, so I went out and bought some Botox treatment,isn’t it irrelevant whether I’d wasted my money as all the time I would have been under £6K? Even though you could say I got such treatment to keep me under the limit? My point being, you can waste your money in any way you wish as long as you remain under the £6K?

So buying coins while I’m under £6K, that will gradually over time push me over £6K, wasn’t deprivation of capital in the first place as I wasn’t over £6K?

Its all jolly complicated, I just have a complete fear of life in general and doing anything wrong or participating in life.

It is quite complicated and I applaud your integrity as demonstrated by that last line.

Because of the complexity of the situation is why I think it is so difficult for people to give an answer on here.

An individual claiming UC should not be deprived of all the pleasures of life.  If that individual gains pleasure by building a collection of rare or special edition coins, then simply being on UC should not preclude the individual from pursuing their hobby.  Looking on the Royal Mint website just now, the first set of special coins is related to the Queen's 95th Birthday:
https://www.royalmint.com/our-coins/events/the-95th-birthday-of-her-majesty-the-queen/

• Say the individual uses a part of this week's UC payment to buy the "£5 Brilliant Uncirculated Coin" listed at £13, it is probably unlikely that deprivation of assets will come into play.  
• Say the individual uses savings from below £6k to buy the "£5 Gold Proof Coin" listed at £2,590, it seems more likely that deprivation of assets could be a consideration.   

With the first scenario, and assuming the coin is then deemed to be "possessions", the value is not considered to be savings.  If the coin was deemed to be "savings", then the value is relatively inconsequential in terms of pushing the individual above the £6k limit.  It makes little difference whether the value for "savings" is the face value £5, the list price £13, or some increased rarity value that a collector will pay, say £50.

With the second scenario, the whole situation is more complex and correct determination of "possessions" or "savings" has a material effect on UC assessment.  If the coin was simply purchased to prevent savings increasing above the £6k threshold (so preserving UC income), then the deprivation of assets comes into play and the value of the coin is assessed as still being savings.  It now does make a difference whether the value of the coin is face value £5, list price £2,590, or the value that a collector may pay.

In the extreme, it was mentioned higher up this thread that some coins can have a value that is a life-changing sum - I think £60k was mentioned.  At this level, the coin as a form of investment rather than possession seems more probably, though I note the link I posted from MA does not consider this type of scenario.

I can't see that you've commented whether the coins you have are all at the £5, £13, £100 type level, or £60k and I can see that a DM might assess the two scenarios differently even though the nominal objects are the same type and logically either both "savings" or both "possessions".

As I say, it is very complex and I don't want to say what is correct or not, as I can only see that it is for a DM.  Can you ask in advance of being near the £6k?

As a comparison, consider an individual who starts claiming UC for the first time and the DM says they can ignore the paintings displayed through the house, because the paintings are "possessions".  Now, consider the same individual but they declare a Picasso in the entrance hallway, a Van Gogh above the mantle-piece and the Constable in the lavatory.  Should the paintings by these Grand Masters be assessed differently from the paintings from B&M?

HollyNW

Thank you Grumpy you’ve been really helpful.

I only have three coins that cost between £13 and £100. I only wanted to collect ones I liked and were part of a set that I could look forward to and build up. I have so little interest in life, but I’ve quite enjoyed watching and learning about various coins on YouTube.

I was hoping to get some 2oz silver Queens Beast completer coin when it goes on sale. Maybe around £200 ish.

To be honest though, this whole experience of asking in here has just put me off. I’m just trying to take advice in case I did anything wrong in the future. Some replies have been so helpful, but others are literally casting dispersions on your entire character. Not pleasant to log on and read some of the comments.

I appreciate your help, I really do, but I’ll leave this thread as it is, don’t want to log on just to read some of this,

vacheron

HollyNW said:

Geez, I didn’t say I was personally off for Botox to keep savings under £6K. Wind your neck in and stop resorting to personal insults from your keyboard please.

I used it an as example of someone clearly wasting money to say that the rules for deprivation of capital don’t apply if your under the £6K. People do waste money when they’re under that threshold, Go above that, and you would need to write to the DWP and show what you’ve spent your money on. That does NOT mean that’s what I want to do!! I was responding to someone who posed the question that deprivation of capital rules may apply when you’re under £6K. Many people waste money on drugs, they don’t fall under those deprivation rules if they only have limited savings. I guess to you I’m now advocating snorting cocaine to reduce your capital.

If you think I was personally talking about seriously getting Botox to reduce savings, then I really can’t help you and your moralising on my ‘motives’ is for you to deal with.

vacheron said:

Therefore, until you have £16,000 in savings and receive no ESA whatsoever, you are still using taxpayers money to subsidise the purchase of collectable trinkets for yourself (or botox to use your example)

I specifically referenced your own example and I highlighted this as such by using the words "your EXAMPLE" so that it was clear that I never believed this to be your intention... SMH. 

I'm glad you found some of the posters helpful though. Hopefully you acted on the many suggestions to ask the coin experts on the silver forum, or HMRC directly, both of whom would be better qualified than us to answer your query definitively and also explains why the discussion on here has now stretched to 9 pages of disagreement culminating in irrelevant and hypothetical scenarios regarding botox!

danjackson2021

Good time to buy silver in this dip

but where is better than eBay in the uk for silver?