DVLA prosecution for car tax

jigershah

AdrianC said:

jigershah said:

AdrianC said:

jigershah said:

jigershah said:

Grey_Critic said:

jigershah said:

We never used that car for all that time as it was not our car we thought. i even told bank and FOS that they can keep the car as thats not our asset. in October 2020, MOT garage put a new battery, two near tyres and service to remove the rust from brake pads etc. its again back on drive way. because steering rack replacement would cost £500 is what I was told.

Got me puzzled here - You say that you had the vehicle MOTd in October 2020 yet claim there is a steering fault. How did it pass an MOT as Steering is an MOT item.

steering is not  

Steering is not what? MOT tested? It certainly is...

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/2-steering

The independent inspector from DVLA told me that steering is difficult because when they test they dont drive the vehicle, they turn steering and stiffness is subjective to tester as there is no gauage or measure so its easy to miss that. This car did not self centre either and again something which cant be tested in MOT either. Independent garage which did inspection of the car told me that steering is stiff and has provided letter on his letter head saying car has a dangerous fault and I provided that proof to dealer at point in time and also this time to DVLA. I personally think MOT is a joke.

That link is the MOT tester's manual. It tells you what's tested, how it's tested, and what the criteria for a fail is.

Which part of the steering section of that tester's manual do you think is a "joke"?

New MOT done in 2020 failed on tyres which have never been used in year which itself explains.

Let me guess... They failed on cracking? Tyres crack over time. Especially if the car isn't used.

but I am the one everyone is happy to point faults at yet no one realises the series of errors at dealer end putting us in this situation.

Whether the dealer did things wrong or not is irrelevant.

You are the person who was legally responsible for ensuring the car met legal requirements in terms of tax or SORN, from the moment you became owner. Trying to stop being owner became academic the moment that the limited company your contract was with ceased to exist.

Dealer has now perhaps shut down his company, wrote off his finances, moved premises, etc. went to another bank who would be happy to lend them money and would be committing the crimes again on road and thats all fine... and allowable because someone like me cant take them to court even as even that costs money... Its amazing! 

The company your contract is with no longer exists. It is dead. It has ceased to be. That is why you have no comeback against them, and hadn't had for a year before you finally owned up to DVLA that you had the car.

Car failed on tyre thread and inner side of tyre was shown to me as bald on drive side. No cracks were mentioned or shown to me. Thread and degradation on inner side of driver side front tyre. To me there is no way that tyre should have passed MOT in first instance in 2019 but ofcourse I never saw inner side of tyres which is again my fault but this is just the reason why I say MOT is a joke (not directions to testers) but the implementation of MOT guidance. 

k3lvc

jigershah said:

GeordieGeorge said:

It’s not clear what you hope to get from this. The date of purchase is not in dispute, nor is the possession of the car. It was parked at your home, and driven on the road very soon after you bought it.

You trying to reject it is not relevant to your obligation to tax it SORN it, nor are any of the other points made.

You need to pay the tax, and decide whether to keep the car or sell it.

posession is in dispute as I see it. I never accepted. I paid for it and ownership is not keepership. Keepership is when v5c is transferred and clearly thats sellers responsibility which he after knowing he was exposed immediately and had consumer writing to him that he should not transfer was left with no option but to keep the v5c as it stood. He never transferred and if to someones point earlier that he may have posted etc. thats again his responsbility and DVLA and not mine. A car parked on my drive way does not make me keeper until keepership is transferred. 

In which case have your day in court - you've made your mind up and nothing that anyone tells you on here is making the blindest bit of difference to your view. 

Out of interest if he'd come back the following day and taken the car back but not returned your money would you still claim that he was the owner ? 

The_Fat_Controller

@jigershah, you paid for the vehicle, were given the New Keeper slip and had it delivered to your address.

From the moment you paid and were handed the New Keeper slip you became the registered keeper, although the dealer should have completed the notification.

If there was any contention to this, you would not have been able to get the V5 in your name the following October.

jigershah

The_Fat_Controller said:

If the steering fault was dangerous the vehicle would not have passed either MOT.

There is an independent garage who also does MOT which I have never used was used and they reported that there is a dangerous fault! this was done at the back of dealers request to get an independent inspection. This is why I say MOT is a joke. Dealers get MOT done without advisories but if same car is taken by customer / common man to a garage, it is likely to come with faults and advisories and would fail... to me its an absolute joke... MOT passed at one garage without advisories, another garage reported a dangerous fault and 3rd garage failed on tyre which the independent inspection also confirmed that those tyres would not pass at theirs. Is that not a joke? 

The_Fat_Controller

The steering issue was, according to you @jigershah, not a fail on any of the two actual MOT tests.

born_again

AdrianC said:

Gawd knows what the bank was investigating for four months, and what the Financial Ombudsman were looking at, if the dealer had indeed been closed the month before the bank got involved - and it was paid by debit card anyway...

But that's all TOTALLY irrelevant when it comes to your responsibilities with DVLA.

Bank will not have been investigating for 4 months.
Last year was a complete nightmare for chargebacks, thanks to covid and holidays being cancelled & other non deliveries.
Chargeback will have been sent to retailers bank and on to retailer. But if not trading then it will have been rejected by their bank on a technicality. Most likely as the car had not been returned (one of the main criteria for a chargeback in this case) 
That's if it even made it as far as being chargeback.. My guess is bank said not enough information. Hence why it went to FOS.

Given the OP had the new keeper slip, then that made him "Registered Keeper", so it would be his responsibility once V5 was received to send it back, given the garage as new keeper. Had it not arrived in due course, then they should have been chasing DVLA for it.

jigershah

k3lvc said:

jigershah said:

GeordieGeorge said:

It’s not clear what you hope to get from this. The date of purchase is not in dispute, nor is the possession of the car. It was parked at your home, and driven on the road very soon after you bought it.

You trying to reject it is not relevant to your obligation to tax it SORN it, nor are any of the other points made.

You need to pay the tax, and decide whether to keep the car or sell it.

posession is in dispute as I see it. I never accepted. I paid for it and ownership is not keepership. Keepership is when v5c is transferred and clearly thats sellers responsibility which he after knowing he was exposed immediately and had consumer writing to him that he should not transfer was left with no option but to keep the v5c as it stood. He never transferred and if to someones point earlier that he may have posted etc. thats again his responsbility and DVLA and not mine. A car parked on my drive way does not make me keeper until keepership is transferred. 

In which case have your day in court - you've made your mind up and nothing that anyone tells you on here is making the blindest bit of difference to your view. 

Out of interest if he'd come back the following day and taken the car back but not returned your money would you still claim that he was the owner ? 

Bank process itself would have been resolved had he taken the car and not refunded. This is what I offered him because he delivered, he has to take it away and I was told that they will offer another car and if I accepted they will swap it which was not acceptable to me. I dont know how I was unfair. 

The_Fat_Controller

@born_again, the bank became involved in Nov 19, well before Covid became an issue.

The only rejection I can see is that 4am Whatsapp message and a few phone calls.

If it had been me I would have dumped it back on his forecourt the next day and put everything in writing.

Tokmon

jigershah said:

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

The_Fat_Controller said:

The transfer should have been completed BEFORE the vehicle was even delivered to you.

Did the seller actually agree to delay doing that until you were satisfied about the repair ?

If it wasn't as described you should have just rejected immediately and demanded a refund.

There are more holes in this story than Swiss Cheese.

Car dealer and we agreed a price at condition of repair and new MOT. on the day, I was called that repair and new MOT has been done. I was in office so money was paid on phone and car delivered to my home which dealer happily did it. my wife didnt know and this happened around 8pm. When I reached home, i drove vehicle at 9pm or around and realised steering problem was not fixed so I conveyed he should not transfer the ownership. He clearly by then didnt inform DVLA about transfer of ownership so car was delivered before transfer was done clearly. 

We were conveyed everything is fixed which clearly he didnt and he also didnt transfer the vehicle in my name making me thing this is not my ownership. I never got any DVLA confirmation for all those months neither we touched the car until the time FOS conclusion came through. 

I rejected it at 4am (after lets say 7 hours) as i was stressed that we have been done in and demanded the refund immediately. This is where dealer never refunded, made all excuses but also did not transfer the car in our name either... 

Where did you drive the car considering you had no insurance? 

out on my street realised as soon as I had to turn the vehicle that steering problem was not fixed so parked back. couldnt sleep, texted him 4am in morning saying not to transfer. 

With this chat, I have realised number of things I have done wrong but none had any ill intention whatsoever. For me as soon as I decided to transfer in our name, I did everything by book. Anything prior i just thought I was not keeper and dealer accepted that by not transferring and DVLA never contacted me either so I never knew I had certain obligations I was not meeting. 

So your drove the car on a public road with no tax and insurance? Yet you claim to be a law abiding citizen?

I would say this is all your fault because you have made no attempt to research what your responsibilities are and i personally think driving without insurance is inexcusable because it can cause so many issues for innocent people. 

Also you say the steering is "stiff" but passed an MOT so this isn't a "dangerous fault" and it's ridiculous you didn't get this to a garage as soon as you noticed the issue instead of wasting a year with it on your driveway. 

yes for few seconds on a culdesac road at 930pm in the night after a long days work... Appreciate your comments. Dangerous fault was proven through an independent garage at dealers request, proof sent to dealer and after that dealer asked that it should come from AA so i was being played. Yes in hindsight I would accept there has been naivity at my end but thats good enough an allegation. Rest I will let you behave the way you would like to. I am sure you are 100% clean in your life and for that you should be very proud...For me its easier said then done but I dont hide behind pretence and admit that taking that car without road tax that night for like 30 seconds and turning back into my drive was a fault of mine. Thats about it... 

So breaking the law is fine because you only did it for 30 seconds? 


A quick search online and looking at the DVLA website would have given you the information that shows you are the keeper of a car that you paid for (so you own it) and is sat on your driveway under your control. If this was a few weeks after it was delivered then fair enough but this is a whole YEAR later and your trying to blame everyone but yourself. Burying your head in the sand and doing nothing makes it your fault!. There is a culture of people doing nothing and making no effort then blaming everyone else and that get's you nowhere in life, you need to take responsibility for your actions.

You said earlier in your thread that "My wife is a doctor and i am a professional and we are law abiding citizens." 

I have no idea how you and your wife got into those positions without an ounce of common sense or problem solving skills between you!

Bank was invoked in November 2019 and concluded the investigation after 4 months including my complaint because they have to give dealer time to respond etc. After this, I was advised to raise complaint to FOS which took 6 months because of Covid. This is where time was lost. I simply followed the processes. we got into these position because my wife is busy serving the needy at the hospital and I am trying to keep my job and we trust people. For me when I refuse keepership of a vehicle and dealer acknowledging that and not transferring means I had no business with DVLA and clearly I was wrong because I did not realise that some rogue dumping a car on wrong premise is now wholy my problem. yes i was wrong and if I realised it, I would have done what I did after exhausting FOS process as advised by CAB. We may be lacking common sense as you nicely point or problem solving skills and yes not everyone is as smart as you may expect but what we do in medicine and in my job, we are reasonable and serve with kindness and good intent at all times. 

What do you mean they "dumped the car on wrong premise". This is a car that you paid for and asked to be delivered to you so you are the legal owner and keeper of the car when that happened. If you look at the DVLA website it says "Tell DVLA you've sold, transferred or bought a vehicle" so you bought the vehicle and you needed to tell them and then you would be the registered keeper. Fair enough if you wanted to wait a few weeks but you should have informed DVLA you were now the keeper, declared SORN and then fought your battle and it's your fault you didn't do this for a year and no one else's.

Many people say they are two "busy" but I'm sure you could have spared 20 minutes to do this when you had time to raise complaints with your bank and FOS through CAB. 

jigershah said:

GeordieGeorge said:

It’s not clear what you hope to get from this. The date of purchase is not in dispute, nor is the possession of the car. It was parked at your home, and driven on the road very soon after you bought it.

You trying to reject it is not relevant to your obligation to tax it SORN it, nor are any of the other points made.

You need to pay the tax, and decide whether to keep the car or sell it.

posession is in dispute as I see it. I never accepted. I paid for it and ownership is not keepership. Keepership is when v5c is transferred and clearly thats sellers responsibility which he after knowing he was exposed immediately and had consumer writing to him that he should not transfer was left with no option but to keep the v5c as it stood. He never transferred and if to someones point earlier that he may have posted etc. thats again his responsbility and DVLA and not mine. A car parked on my drive way does not make me keeper until keepership is transferred. 

You accepted it when you paid in full and arranged for it to be delivered and accepted that delivery. Plus you legally owned it and had it on your driveway so you were definitely the "keeper" in all definitions you just chose to not tell DVLA and that was your fault. 

But there's no point in arguing it with us if your going to stand your ground and not see you have done anything wrong.

jigershah

born_again said:

AdrianC said:

Gawd knows what the bank was investigating for four months, and what the Financial Ombudsman were looking at, if the dealer had indeed been closed the month before the bank got involved - and it was paid by debit card anyway...

But that's all TOTALLY irrelevant when it comes to your responsibilities with DVLA.

Bank will not have been investigating for 4 months.
Last year was a complete nightmare for chargebacks, thanks to covid and holidays being cancelled & other non deliveries.
Chargeback will have been sent to retailers bank and on to retailer. But if not trading then it will have been rejected by their bank on a technicality. Most likely as the car had not been returned (one of the main criteria for a chargeback in this case) 
That's if it even made it as far as being chargeback.. My guess is bank said not enough information. Hence why it went to FOS.

Given the OP had the new keeper slip, then that made him "Registered Keeper", so it would be his responsibility once V5 was received to send it back, given the garage as new keeper. Had it not arrived in due course, then they should have been chasing DVLA for it.

Bank (Santander) lost time firstly picking up my phone call and registering and when I followed up in a week seeing no updates, I was told they will send me forms which I have to fill in and sign and they will look into it, that took another few weeks for their form and procedures to come through and for me to put together everything and send them back. From there after few weeks they asked additional information which I had already supplied to them as photocopies so that lost another time, and finally they accepted all information they said they will reach out to merchant and they have to legally wait perhaps 6-8 weeks for merchant to respond before they do anything and after that they declined.
They declined on grounds that goods were returned exactly to your point and I argued that this is not my car and it was delivered to me and has a dangerous fault so I am not going to drive and take a risk neither can spend money to get car over to dealer when they delivered but bank wont listen (against my consumer rights as discussed earlier) so I complained against that verdict which again waited for another 3-4 weeks minimum for independent investigation only to be told same thing but this time saying Visa wont agree because visa has this rule and because I had honestly conveyed that company has shut down that visa wont be able to recover and they will use this the fine print independent of consumer rights so I was asked to now go FOS. FOS was invoked and FOS was slowest. I had to chase month on month to get case worker assigned. 
New keeper slip required my consent to be transferred over as new keeper formally with DVLA which I declined immediately. Car sitting on driveway with new keeper slip in my hand made me keeper despite me declining consent to transfer into my name and accepting the car is where I have gone wrong in first instance thinking if seller hasnt transferred they remain keeper because it is sellers responsibility to notify and not mine and if they havent its them continuing the keepership and secondly when I finally worked out that I can still transfer in my name via this keeper slip which to others point I have not had common sense to know that (As I had to go CAB after fOs to understand where I stand as i have car sitting on driveway which is not ours and we have lost money too) i was told that talk to DVLA, explain and see if they can assist which is when I was first exposed to process of v62 transfer and where I made another mistake of putting date when we got the vehicle as 16th september 2019 instead of Oct 2020. 

Yes, I was wrong on many counts but I perhaps got dragged into fact that how can someone charge money, lie on my face and dump the car in that state. Agreed MOT passed it but this is why I am saying MOT passed the car with same set of tyres too which then was failed by another garage which puts MOT test credibility in question too.