DVLA prosecution for car tax

jigershah

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

The_Fat_Controller said:

The transfer should have been completed BEFORE the vehicle was even delivered to you.

Did the seller actually agree to delay doing that until you were satisfied about the repair ?

If it wasn't as described you should have just rejected immediately and demanded a refund.

There are more holes in this story than Swiss Cheese.

Car dealer and we agreed a price at condition of repair and new MOT. on the day, I was called that repair and new MOT has been done. I was in office so money was paid on phone and car delivered to my home which dealer happily did it. my wife didnt know and this happened around 8pm. When I reached home, i drove vehicle at 9pm or around and realised steering problem was not fixed so I conveyed he should not transfer the ownership. He clearly by then didnt inform DVLA about transfer of ownership so car was delivered before transfer was done clearly. 

We were conveyed everything is fixed which clearly he didnt and he also didnt transfer the vehicle in my name making me thing this is not my ownership. I never got any DVLA confirmation for all those months neither we touched the car until the time FOS conclusion came through. 

I rejected it at 4am (after lets say 7 hours) as i was stressed that we have been done in and demanded the refund immediately. This is where dealer never refunded, made all excuses but also did not transfer the car in our name either... 

Where did you drive the car considering you had no insurance? 

out on my street realised as soon as I had to turn the vehicle that steering problem was not fixed so parked back. couldnt sleep, texted him 4am in morning saying not to transfer. 

With this chat, I have realised number of things I have done wrong but none had any ill intention whatsoever. For me as soon as I decided to transfer in our name, I did everything by book. Anything prior i just thought I was not keeper and dealer accepted that by not transferring and DVLA never contacted me either so I never knew I had certain obligations I was not meeting. 

So your drove the car on a public road with no tax and insurance? Yet you claim to be a law abiding citizen?

I would say this is all your fault because you have made no attempt to research what your responsibilities are and i personally think driving without insurance is inexcusable because it can cause so many issues for innocent people. 

Also you say the steering is "stiff" but passed an MOT so this isn't a "dangerous fault" and it's ridiculous you didn't get this to a garage as soon as you noticed the issue instead of wasting a year with it on your driveway. 

yes for few seconds on a culdesac road at 930pm in the night after a long days work... Appreciate your comments. Dangerous fault was proven through an independent garage at dealers request, proof sent to dealer and after that dealer asked that it should come from AA so i was being played. Yes in hindsight I would accept there has been naivity at my end but thats good enough an allegation. Rest I will let you behave the way you would like to. I am sure you are 100% clean in your life and for that you should be very proud...For me its easier said then done but I dont hide behind pretence and admit that taking that car without road tax that night for like 30 seconds and turning back into my drive was a fault of mine. Thats about it... 

jigershah

AdrianC said:

jigershah said:

jigershah said:

Grey_Critic said:

jigershah said:

We never used that car for all that time as it was not our car we thought. i even told bank and FOS that they can keep the car as thats not our asset. in October 2020, MOT garage put a new battery, two near tyres and service to remove the rust from brake pads etc. its again back on drive way. because steering rack replacement would cost £500 is what I was told.

Got me puzzled here - You say that you had the vehicle MOTd in October 2020 yet claim there is a steering fault. How did it pass an MOT as Steering is an MOT item.

steering is not  

Steering is not what? MOT tested? It certainly is...

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/2-steering

The independent inspector from DVLA told me that steering is difficult because when they test they dont drive the vehicle, they turn steering and stiffness is subjective to tester as there is no gauage or measure so its easy to miss that. This car did not self centre either and again something which cant be tested in MOT either. Independent garage which did inspection of the car told me that steering is stiff and has provided letter on his letter head saying car has a dangerous fault and I provided that proof to dealer at point in time and also this time to DVLA. I personally think MOT is a joke. New MOT done in 2020 failed on tyres which have never been used in year which itself explains. New MOT garage also never failed it on steering but pointed to me when driving out the car from MOT bay and parking while I was waiting that steering feels very stiff... Hope this provides a bit of light... There is plenty to learn for me admit it but fundamentally speaking dealers are allowed to do what they want and there is nothing to catch them as MOT done on car delivered to us is questionnable if new MOT failed on tyres... but I am the one everyone is happy to point faults at yet no one realises the series of errors at dealer end putting us in this situation. Dealer has now perhaps shut down his company, wrote off his finances, moved premises, etc. went to another bank who would be happy to lend them money and would be committing the crimes again on road and thats all fine... and allowable because someone like me cant take them to court even as even that costs money... Its amazing! 

The_Fat_Controller

If the steering fault was dangerous the vehicle would not have passed either MOT.

GeordieGeorge

It’s not clear what you hope to get from this. The date of purchase is not in dispute, nor is the possession of the car. It was parked at your home, and driven on the road very soon after you bought it.

You trying to reject it is not relevant to your obligation to tax it SORN it, nor are any of the other points made.

You need to pay the tax, and decide whether to keep the car or sell it.

AdrianC

jigershah said:

AdrianC said:

jigershah said:

jigershah said:

Grey_Critic said:

jigershah said:

We never used that car for all that time as it was not our car we thought. i even told bank and FOS that they can keep the car as thats not our asset. in October 2020, MOT garage put a new battery, two near tyres and service to remove the rust from brake pads etc. its again back on drive way. because steering rack replacement would cost £500 is what I was told.

Got me puzzled here - You say that you had the vehicle MOTd in October 2020 yet claim there is a steering fault. How did it pass an MOT as Steering is an MOT item.

steering is not  

Steering is not what? MOT tested? It certainly is...

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/2-steering

The independent inspector from DVLA told me that steering is difficult because when they test they dont drive the vehicle, they turn steering and stiffness is subjective to tester as there is no gauage or measure so its easy to miss that. This car did not self centre either and again something which cant be tested in MOT either. Independent garage which did inspection of the car told me that steering is stiff and has provided letter on his letter head saying car has a dangerous fault and I provided that proof to dealer at point in time and also this time to DVLA. I personally think MOT is a joke.

That link is the MOT tester's manual. It tells you what's tested, how it's tested, and what the criteria for a fail is.

Which part of the steering section of that tester's manual do you think is a "joke"?

New MOT done in 2020 failed on tyres which have never been used in year which itself explains.

Let me guess... They failed on cracking? Tyres crack over time. Especially if the car isn't used.

but I am the one everyone is happy to point faults at yet no one realises the series of errors at dealer end putting us in this situation.

Whether the dealer did things wrong or not is irrelevant.

You are the person who was legally responsible for ensuring the car met legal requirements in terms of tax or SORN, from the moment you became owner. Trying to stop being owner became academic the moment that the limited company your contract was with ceased to exist.

Dealer has now perhaps shut down his company, wrote off his finances, moved premises, etc. went to another bank who would be happy to lend them money and would be committing the crimes again on road and thats all fine... and allowable because someone like me cant take them to court even as even that costs money... Its amazing! 

The company your contract is with no longer exists. It is dead. It has ceased to be. That is why you have no comeback against them, and hadn't had for a year before you finally owned up to DVLA that you had the car.

Tokmon

jigershah said:

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

The_Fat_Controller said:

The transfer should have been completed BEFORE the vehicle was even delivered to you.

Did the seller actually agree to delay doing that until you were satisfied about the repair ?

If it wasn't as described you should have just rejected immediately and demanded a refund.

There are more holes in this story than Swiss Cheese.

Car dealer and we agreed a price at condition of repair and new MOT. on the day, I was called that repair and new MOT has been done. I was in office so money was paid on phone and car delivered to my home which dealer happily did it. my wife didnt know and this happened around 8pm. When I reached home, i drove vehicle at 9pm or around and realised steering problem was not fixed so I conveyed he should not transfer the ownership. He clearly by then didnt inform DVLA about transfer of ownership so car was delivered before transfer was done clearly. 

We were conveyed everything is fixed which clearly he didnt and he also didnt transfer the vehicle in my name making me thing this is not my ownership. I never got any DVLA confirmation for all those months neither we touched the car until the time FOS conclusion came through. 

I rejected it at 4am (after lets say 7 hours) as i was stressed that we have been done in and demanded the refund immediately. This is where dealer never refunded, made all excuses but also did not transfer the car in our name either... 

Where did you drive the car considering you had no insurance? 

out on my street realised as soon as I had to turn the vehicle that steering problem was not fixed so parked back. couldnt sleep, texted him 4am in morning saying not to transfer. 

With this chat, I have realised number of things I have done wrong but none had any ill intention whatsoever. For me as soon as I decided to transfer in our name, I did everything by book. Anything prior i just thought I was not keeper and dealer accepted that by not transferring and DVLA never contacted me either so I never knew I had certain obligations I was not meeting. 

So your drove the car on a public road with no tax and insurance? Yet you claim to be a law abiding citizen?

I would say this is all your fault because you have made no attempt to research what your responsibilities are and i personally think driving without insurance is inexcusable because it can cause so many issues for innocent people. 

Also you say the steering is "stiff" but passed an MOT so this isn't a "dangerous fault" and it's ridiculous you didn't get this to a garage as soon as you noticed the issue instead of wasting a year with it on your driveway. 

yes for few seconds on a culdesac road at 930pm in the night after a long days work... Appreciate your comments. Dangerous fault was proven through an independent garage at dealers request, proof sent to dealer and after that dealer asked that it should come from AA so i was being played. Yes in hindsight I would accept there has been naivity at my end but thats good enough an allegation. Rest I will let you behave the way you would like to. I am sure you are 100% clean in your life and for that you should be very proud...For me its easier said then done but I dont hide behind pretence and admit that taking that car without road tax that night for like 30 seconds and turning back into my drive was a fault of mine. Thats about it... 

So breaking the law is fine because you only did it for 30 seconds? 


A quick search online and looking at the DVLA website would have given you the information that shows you are the keeper of a car that you paid for (so you own it) and is sat on your driveway under your control. If this was a few weeks after it was delivered then fair enough but this is a whole YEAR later and your trying to blame everyone but yourself. Burying your head in the sand and doing nothing makes it your fault!. There is a culture of people doing nothing and making no effort then blaming everyone else and that get's you nowhere in life, you need to take responsibility for your actions.

You said earlier in your thread that "My wife is a doctor and i am a professional and we are law abiding citizens." 

I have no idea how you and your wife got into those positions without an ounce of common sense or problem solving skills between you!

jigershah

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

Tokmon said:

jigershah said:

The_Fat_Controller said:

The transfer should have been completed BEFORE the vehicle was even delivered to you.

Did the seller actually agree to delay doing that until you were satisfied about the repair ?

If it wasn't as described you should have just rejected immediately and demanded a refund.

There are more holes in this story than Swiss Cheese.

Car dealer and we agreed a price at condition of repair and new MOT. on the day, I was called that repair and new MOT has been done. I was in office so money was paid on phone and car delivered to my home which dealer happily did it. my wife didnt know and this happened around 8pm. When I reached home, i drove vehicle at 9pm or around and realised steering problem was not fixed so I conveyed he should not transfer the ownership. He clearly by then didnt inform DVLA about transfer of ownership so car was delivered before transfer was done clearly. 

We were conveyed everything is fixed which clearly he didnt and he also didnt transfer the vehicle in my name making me thing this is not my ownership. I never got any DVLA confirmation for all those months neither we touched the car until the time FOS conclusion came through. 

I rejected it at 4am (after lets say 7 hours) as i was stressed that we have been done in and demanded the refund immediately. This is where dealer never refunded, made all excuses but also did not transfer the car in our name either... 

Where did you drive the car considering you had no insurance? 

out on my street realised as soon as I had to turn the vehicle that steering problem was not fixed so parked back. couldnt sleep, texted him 4am in morning saying not to transfer. 

With this chat, I have realised number of things I have done wrong but none had any ill intention whatsoever. For me as soon as I decided to transfer in our name, I did everything by book. Anything prior i just thought I was not keeper and dealer accepted that by not transferring and DVLA never contacted me either so I never knew I had certain obligations I was not meeting. 

So your drove the car on a public road with no tax and insurance? Yet you claim to be a law abiding citizen?

I would say this is all your fault because you have made no attempt to research what your responsibilities are and i personally think driving without insurance is inexcusable because it can cause so many issues for innocent people. 

Also you say the steering is "stiff" but passed an MOT so this isn't a "dangerous fault" and it's ridiculous you didn't get this to a garage as soon as you noticed the issue instead of wasting a year with it on your driveway. 

yes for few seconds on a culdesac road at 930pm in the night after a long days work... Appreciate your comments. Dangerous fault was proven through an independent garage at dealers request, proof sent to dealer and after that dealer asked that it should come from AA so i was being played. Yes in hindsight I would accept there has been naivity at my end but thats good enough an allegation. Rest I will let you behave the way you would like to. I am sure you are 100% clean in your life and for that you should be very proud...For me its easier said then done but I dont hide behind pretence and admit that taking that car without road tax that night for like 30 seconds and turning back into my drive was a fault of mine. Thats about it... 

So breaking the law is fine because you only did it for 30 seconds? 


A quick search online and looking at the DVLA website would have given you the information that shows you are the keeper of a car that you paid for (so you own it) and is sat on your driveway under your control. If this was a few weeks after it was delivered then fair enough but this is a whole YEAR later and your trying to blame everyone but yourself. Burying your head in the sand and doing nothing makes it your fault!. There is a culture of people doing nothing and making no effort then blaming everyone else and that get's you nowhere in life, you need to take responsibility for your actions.

You said earlier in your thread that "My wife is a doctor and i am a professional and we are law abiding citizens." 

I have no idea how you and your wife got into those positions without an ounce of common sense or problem solving skills between you!

Bank was invoked in November 2019 and concluded the investigation after 4 months including my complaint because they have to give dealer time to respond etc. After this, I was advised to raise complaint to FOS which took 6 months because of Covid. This is where time was lost. I simply followed the processes. we got into these position because my wife is busy serving the needy at the hospital and I am trying to keep my job and we trust people. For me when I refuse keepership of a vehicle and dealer acknowledging that and not transferring means I had no business with DVLA and clearly I was wrong because I did not realise that some rogue dumping a car on wrong premise is now wholy my problem. yes i was wrong and if I realised it, I would have done what I did after exhausting FOS process as advised by CAB. We may be lacking common sense as you nicely point or problem solving skills and yes not everyone is as smart as you may expect but what we do in medicine and in my job, we are reasonable and serve with kindness and good intent at all times. 

jimjames

jigershah said:

AdrianC said:

jigershah said:

by law I am not supposed to inform the DVLA, seller is which is my point. What do I inform DVLA that I have a slip but I dont accept the keepership of the car? 

You seem to think that the dispute between you and the garage is relevant to you refusing to accept it's your car.

Nope. Doesn't work like that.

It became your car when you bought it.
It would have ceased to be your car if you'd succeeded in formally returning it under your consumer rights.
But... you never did. It was always your car.

You tried to refuse it the first night of your ownership - but the dealer did not accept that return.
What you should have done then was to physically return the car to his premises in the morning, along with all paperwork, and launch a court claim for your money. You didn't. You kept the car.

Any hopes of you getting your money back went when the limited company with whom you had a contract closed. You did not have any s172 comeback against a financier, because you paid by debit card, not credit card.

At that point, there was no argument whatsoever - it was YOUR CAR. Both in ownership and in keepership, which is very obviously legally distinct.

I don't think I see anywhere what age and value of car we're talking about here... Is a failed steering rack a problem that's unreasonable for a car of that age and price? It was certainly known to be failing at the time of purchase... the dealer simply failed to fix it pre-purchase. Well, since the dealer's no longer extant, that's irrelevant.

Thanks Adrian, the car had dangerous fault so I did not want to drive it back to garage and I offered him to collect it and he kept offering excuses. Secondly, dealer accepted or implied acceptance of my rejection by not actioning the change of keepership of V5C. I understand all of these now but that was our position that we will not drive this car to the garage given the dangerous fault which was identified before purchase and was condition to purchase and we were lied that it was fixed which clear it wasnt. Failed steering rack isnt a problem, problem is garage claiming that its fixed (which is an expensive fix apparently costing £500 upwards with parts and labour). 

Can I clarify something? You've previously said MOT garage did work in Oct 2020. By calling them MOT garage does that mean they passed the car with a new MOT? If so the steering rack is not the issue you seem to think and isn't a safety fault and doesn't stop the car being used.

Or did they do the other work but fail the MOT? In which case why did they put new tyres on a car that was not driveable?

AdrianC

Gawd knows what the bank was investigating for four months, and what the Financial Ombudsman were looking at, if the dealer had indeed been closed the month before the bank got involved - and it was paid by debit card anyway...

But that's all TOTALLY irrelevant when it comes to your responsibilities with DVLA.

jigershah

GeordieGeorge said:

It’s not clear what you hope to get from this. The date of purchase is not in dispute, nor is the possession of the car. It was parked at your home, and driven on the road very soon after you bought it.

You trying to reject it is not relevant to your obligation to tax it SORN it, nor are any of the other points made.

You need to pay the tax, and decide whether to keep the car or sell it.

posession is in dispute as I see it. I never accepted. I paid for it and ownership is not keepership. Keepership is when v5c is transferred and clearly thats sellers responsibility which he after knowing he was exposed immediately and had consumer writing to him that he should not transfer was left with no option but to keep the v5c as it stood. He never transferred and if to someones point earlier that he may have posted etc. thats again his responsbility and DVLA and not mine. A car parked on my drive way does not make me keeper until keepership is transferred.