Any other Stakers?

Gary1984

Well they'll still have their money in 5 years. Which is kind of the point. 

moneysavinghero

mark55man said:

How does vintage wine or art collections accrete value - no more are being created but the value goes up.  Often money can be made by just holding the assets and those on the inside probably have options or futures like mechanisms that can return a fraction (even a 10%) to those willing to trust them with the coins

I don't want to overstate my risk - 5% of my risky pot into Coin related funds.  Not unlike Ruffer, who are hardly f e c k less  

Vintage wine and art collections go up in value precisely because no more are being created. If you could just press a button and another Van Gogh appears then the value of a Van Gogh would be negligible.

So what happens when the guys behind all these coin scams decide to press the button and create thousands more coins? At least with Bitcoin there is a barrier to creating new coins, but with the scam coins the only barrier is in finding another mug who wants to invest in them at which point the button gets pressed.

Flatulentoldgoat

moneysavinghero said:

mark55man said:

How does vintage wine or art collections accrete value - no more are being created but the value goes up.  Often money can be made by just holding the assets and those on the inside probably have options or futures like mechanisms that can return a fraction (even a 10%) to those willing to trust them with the coins

I don't want to overstate my risk - 5% of my risky pot into Coin related funds.  Not unlike Ruffer, who are hardly f e c k less  

Vintage wine and art collections go up in value precisely because no more are being created. If you could just press a button and another Van Gogh appears then the value of a Van Gogh would be negligible.

So what happens when the guys behind all these coin scams decide to press the button and create thousands more coins? At least with Bitcoin there is a barrier to creating new coins, but with the scam coins the only barrier is in finding another mug who wants to invest in them at which point the button gets pressed.

You seem to have achieved an impressive degree of enlightenment regarding all things crypto. Amazing, and with this refined wisdom in mind, can you point out which 'scam' coins you refer to, please. I'm very interested to know as I don't want to lose all my money. I'll be sure to tell all my mates too, you know the ones at the other end of the $500b+ cap.....

HansOndabush

Just google sh*tcoins

moneysavinghero

Flatulentoldgoat said:

moneysavinghero said:

mark55man said:

How does vintage wine or art collections accrete value - no more are being created but the value goes up.  Often money can be made by just holding the assets and those on the inside probably have options or futures like mechanisms that can return a fraction (even a 10%) to those willing to trust them with the coins

I don't want to overstate my risk - 5% of my risky pot into Coin related funds.  Not unlike Ruffer, who are hardly f e c k less  

Vintage wine and art collections go up in value precisely because no more are being created. If you could just press a button and another Van Gogh appears then the value of a Van Gogh would be negligible.

So what happens when the guys behind all these coin scams decide to press the button and create thousands more coins? At least with Bitcoin there is a barrier to creating new coins, but with the scam coins the only barrier is in finding another mug who wants to invest in them at which point the button gets pressed.

You seem to have achieved an impressive degree of enlightenment regarding all things crypto. Amazing, and with this refined wisdom in mind, can you point out which 'scam' coins you refer to, please. I'm very interested to know as I don't want to lose all my money. I'll be sure to tell all my mates too, you know the ones at the other end of the $500b+ cap.....

Surprised these high rollers at 'the other end of the $500bn+ cap' are hanging around with such a low roller. You must have a great personality.

mark55man

moneysavinghero said:

mark55man said:

How does vintage wine or art collections accrete value - no more are being created but the value goes up.  Often money can be made by just holding the assets and those on the inside probably have options or futures like mechanisms that can return a fraction (even a 10%) to those willing to trust them with the coins

I don't want to overstate my risk - 5% of my risky pot into Coin related funds.  Not unlike Ruffer, who are hardly f e c k less  

Vintage wine and art collections go up in value precisely because no more are being created. If you could just press a button and another Van Gogh appears then the value of a Van Gogh would be negligible.

So what happens when the guys behind all these coin scams decide to press the button and create thousands more coins? At least with Bitcoin there is a barrier to creating new coins, but with the scam coins the only barrier is in finding another mug who wants to invest in them at which point the button gets pressed.

But isn't that just the same as equity dilution which is not pleasant, but is a fundamental part of the equity lifecycle.  you don't go into a stock wanting to be diluted, but is a legitimate risk (albeit at the scammy end of the spectrum, but can happen blue chip).  You seem to be condemning all coins as sh*tcoins, without condemning all PLCs as sh*tPLCs because some (Carillion springs to mind) ran out of (government) fools to skip the carousel rolling.  So its a risk, but not specific to coin.  Or are you arguing about relative ease with which that could happen - but the tone of the battle feels like absolute condemnation not relative risk assessment! 

That said, I'm not going to get out of bed for 10% annual return given the risks - even if it is layered on top of the underlying assets.  In my mind that's like leveraging your mortgage to get extra - possible but not what I want at this stage of my life(cycle).

 

Flatulentoldgoat

moneysavinghero said:

Flatulentoldgoat said:

moneysavinghero said:

mark55man said:

How does vintage wine or art collections accrete value - no more are being created but the value goes up.  Often money can be made by just holding the assets and those on the inside probably have options or futures like mechanisms that can return a fraction (even a 10%) to those willing to trust them with the coins

I don't want to overstate my risk - 5% of my risky pot into Coin related funds.  Not unlike Ruffer, who are hardly f e c k less  

Vintage wine and art collections go up in value precisely because no more are being created. If you could just press a button and another Van Gogh appears then the value of a Van Gogh would be negligible.

So what happens when the guys behind all these coin scams decide to press the button and create thousands more coins? At least with Bitcoin there is a barrier to creating new coins, but with the scam coins the only barrier is in finding another mug who wants to invest in them at which point the button gets pressed.

You seem to have achieved an impressive degree of enlightenment regarding all things crypto. Amazing, and with this refined wisdom in mind, can you point out which 'scam' coins you refer to, please. I'm very interested to know as I don't want to lose all my money. I'll be sure to tell all my mates too, you know the ones at the other end of the $500b+ cap.....

Surprised these high rollers at 'the other end of the $500bn+ cap' are hanging around with such a low roller. You must have a great personality.

Yet, despite your drivel my crypto is up again. I'm sorry you missed out but it sounds like you feel good about yourself so I'm happy for you.

User232002

Gary1984 said:

darren232002 said:

As I have said, it comes from a very legitimate and sustainable use case. 

Well that's me convinced. So I buy $100 of tokens from an exchange. The $100 of tokens are deposited with a bank to fully back the value of my tokens (let's say the bank pays $2 interest). In a year I have my original 100 tokens plus 10 more in interest. Where did my 10 tokens come from? The issuer could create them, sure. But unless they have another $8 to add to the $2 interest from the bank they're no longer fully backed.

So either a) I don't get my 10% interest after all
b) They aren't 100% backed after all, destroying their USP
c) The exchange has lost $8 and will soon go bust
d) It's a big ponzi scheme and the extra $8 is being paid by new investors to keep new deposits rolling in. At some point the issuer/exchange will withdraw all the real money nominally backing the tokens from the bank and run off with it, leaving all investors with worthless strings of 1s and 0s.

I'm going for d). 

Thank you. I have a law degree, a mathematics degree and a masters in statistics & data science (amongst other degrees) but I really needed you to break this down with small numbers for me to understand it.

How about (e) maybe, just maybe, I understand something you don't?

maxsteam said:

Flatulentoldgoat said:

Interest rate (RPY) of about 12%. That's phenomenal compared to what you could expect to receive in an ordinary savings

There will be a day when the regulatory authorities catch up with cryptocurrencies. There will also be a day when an employee at a cryptocurrency exchange takes the money and runs. When that day comes, those who have savings in an ordinary savings account will still have their savings.

No and no. Crypto can't be banned unless you turn off the internet. You can cut yourself off from the network, but game theory incentivises participation so you would just end up making yourself poorer. Fun fact; in every country that has tried to ban bitcoin, the value of bitcoin trades at a premium. As to the second point, its a trivial mathematical problem to spread keys between x employees such that you need y to access, ie. any 4 out of 7. There are no single points of failure in crypto - which is one of the many reasons why its valuable.

Gary1984 said:

You effectively won a gamble that the value of your tokens didn't crash and a bigger sucker came along to buy them. It's in no way comparable to keeping your money safely in the bank.

Must have missed the part where I said that you can get 10% easily with USD stablecoins with no exposure to volatility or price changes.

Gary1984 said:

I still don't get the double digit interest thing and nobody seems able to explain where this comes from. 

The more money that comes in to the system, the greater the supply of capital and the lower the APYs will be. I have little incentive to hold your hand through this and directly tell you exactly where they come from, reducing my own bottom line. But I have found some advice on MSE valuable throughout the years so I have left enough information here such that it should be relatively easy to research this for yourself. If you can't spend a day looking in to something that I've told you has 10% risk free returns (and much more if you are even slightly competent) then you don't deserve those returns. 

User232002

HansOndabush said:

mark55man said:

How does vintage wine or art collections accrete value - no more are being created but the value goes up.  

Inflation. Fiat currencies always devalue against hard assets like the ones you mention plus housing, gold, and silver.

Are you for real? How can you acknowledge inflation and be anti BTC? Governments have printed 20%+ of GDP over the last year and gold, a 'store of value,' is up 5%. 

Malthusian said:

darren232002 said:

As I have said, it comes from a very legitimate and sustainable use case. But I'm not doing everything for you.

An undertaking of great value, but nobody to know what it is? Well I'm convinced bro, here's all my money.

Question: if the bro in New York has a money-making machine which allows him to back a promise to pay all punters their deposit in real dollars plus 10% per year, in real dollars, when they want to cash out their digital dollars, then why faff about with crypto and restrict potential investors?

Why not offer returns of, say, 8% per year to the wider financial market if they invest in his money-making machine?

Reality says: Because only crypto bros will believe in his claim to have a money-making machine that allows him to guarantee to pay deposit + 10%pa in real dollars to anyone who cashes in their digital dollars.

Cryptobro says: BUT MUH BLOCKCHAIN!

Cool story. You don't believe its possible. I can see you've done plenty of thorough research and due diligence, so you must be correct

User232002

Gary1984 said:

Well they'll still have their money in 5 years. Which is kind of the point. 

Actually, they will still have fiat in 5 years. Which is kind of the point.

Anyway, I broke my own rule to come back here. There's not much point sticking around debating with people that I don't think will ever get it. 

My final point is that the naysayers should probably set a point as to when your thesis becomes invalidated and stick to it. People have been screaming bubble from when Bitcoin was $20. Its now at $63k. As adoption continues to grow, the probability of it being a bubble decreases very quickly. At some point you will have to accept you don't understand and that you might be wrong. The only pertinent question is; when is that?

When it gets to $100k? $400k? $1m?
When basically every S&P500 or FTSE100 company has part of their treasury in it?
When its market cap flips gold?
When sovereign wealth funds start buying it?
When central banks put it on their balance sheets?