BP forecourt PCN

paulb76

Good Evening
This week a PCN arrived to the keeper from parking control management (UK) ltd. aka pcm.
It alleges all the usual stuff including that the driver parked in a parking area reserved for patrons whilst in premises only.
I have read all the newbies stuff and will use the blue appeal text whilst trying to get my head round the other stuff.
I'm posting because I haven't seen any of these petrol station 'cant leave' parking scams on here. Nor have I seen any pcm UK posts.
The driver was not aware that parking enforcement even existed as they have parked there many times in the past and the parking contract must be fairly recent. its not a car park and the only small sign near the entrance appears to have been conveniently mounted facing the wrong way. They did not park in any marked bay and there were no obvious signs in the immediate area where the car was parked. The closet was on a small fence obscured by a parked vehicle.
Upon complaining to BP we were made aware that BP do not even own the garage and the managers do not seem interested in the complaint. 
The site was left to visit a macdonalds that sits literally on the same land with access straight through. There are actually gaps along the fencing as when built there was intended access between the two sites. Ironically their car park, which could have been used is also monitored but with clear signage!
Is this the start of a long drawn out process? I can see why some would pay 60 quid and just never return. Just writing this probably took up ten quids worth of time 😂
Any help or advice obviously appreciated.
Some pics were taken of the site if of any interest.
Thanks for reading. 

Fruitcake

Where did this occur? We see a few petrol station cases here so it is possible this site has cropped up before. 

Have the scammers provided any proof that someone left the site? "Leaving site" is very difficult for scammers to prove, so you shouldn't go round telling the world whether anyone did or didn't do that.
Is the site boundary defined by description or by a map on signage? If not, the scammers will have great difficulty convincing a judge that this occurred. How is a motorist to know when they have left a specific site if it has not been defined in some way?

A landowner cancellation is always the best option so you could ask the council who pays the non-domestic business rates to see if that helps. Some councils have this information on a spread sheet you can access from their website.
If it gets to court then you can pay a few quid to get a copy of the Land Registry entry.

You can also check the council planning department to see if advertising consent for the signs has been approved. It's not a game changer but it is always worth having in the back pocket if there is none. 
Not having consent is a criminal offence but only the council can pursue it.

Complain to your MP.

Contact local and national press to warn others about this unregulated scam in general, and this scam site in particular.

Get as many pics of the site and signage as possible that will help your case if this goes to court.

Other than that, re-read the NEWBIES so you know what to do next if/when the initial appeal is rejected.

Fruitcake

Have a look at VCS vs Ibbotson, infamously known as the "Toothbrush case" where the claimant was threatened with prison because the didn't have a contract to scam with the landowner. The judge mentioned signage and asked where it says if someone leaves site but leaves their car in situe they will get a scamvoice.
He also asked why the parking operative didn't warn the driver what would happen if they left site.


index.php (pepipoo.com)

D_P_Dance

Have you complained to your MP?

paulb76

Fruitcake said:

Where did this occur? We see a few petrol station cases here so it is possible this site has cropped up before. 

Have the scammers provided any proof that someone left the site? "Leaving site" is very difficult for scammers to prove, so you shouldn't go round telling the world whether anyone did or didn't do that.
Is the site boundary defined by description or by a map on signage? If not, the scammers will have great difficulty convincing a judge that this occurred. How is a motorist to know when they have left a specific site if it has not been defined in some way?

A landowner cancellation is always the best option so you could ask the council who pays the non-domestic business rates to see if that helps. Some councils have this information on a spread sheet you can access from their website.
If it gets to court then you can pay a few quid to get a copy of the Land Registry entry.

You can also check the council planning department to see if advertising consent for the signs has been approved. It's not a game changer but it is always worth having in the back pocket if there is none. 
Not having consent is a criminal offence but only the council can pursue it.

Complain to your MP.

Contact local and national press to warn others about this unregulated scam in general, and this scam site in particular.

Get as many pics of the site and signage as possible that will help your case if this goes to court.

Other than that, re-read the NEWBIES so you know what to do next if/when the initial appeal is rejected.

It is BP rugby service station on Willenhall lane. Binley Coventry. 
BP have had a complaint and they assured me that BP do not charge for parking, unfortunately BP garages that are not owned by BP might. How's that for a corker.
They also told me the site is owned by motorfuel group and a quick google search of them does not bode well.
I shall complain to the MP. My question on that is to the MP of the area where the site is or my MP where I live? Or both? I live the other side of the city.
My other problem is that the keeper (who was not driving) is probably the worst type of person for dealing with the issue and will likely have a meltdown at the thought of court hearings even though I will deal with everything.
I will get onto the other stuff concerning permissions too.
Thanks

Le_Kirk

You complain to your MP and ask them to pass it on to the MP for the area in which the event occurred.

Fruitcake

I did say, complain to your MP, but you can copy in the MP for the location or ask your MP to do that.

Make sure everything is done in the keeper's name. If they can't or won't deal with it, you can help them with their permission and use a throwaway email address just for this issue so everything comes to you.

Complain to the CEO of the landowner. It can't hurt, but don't volunteer information that could damage the keeper's case. I suggest you state that the scammers are claiming an occupant of the car left site but has not provided any proof. You don't need to mention much else, and certainly not what happened after the car stopped unless a purchase was made on site.
If you or anyone else for that matters have fuel or shop receipts, include them to show you or they are users of the filling station.

SayNoToPCN

As above

DO they comply with POFA2012 to hold the keeper liable? You need a yes or no here, and yif you are unsure, then check the NtK against the POFA2012, schedule 4, para 9 online. 

paulb76

SayNoToPCN said:

As above

DO they comply with POFA2012 to hold the keeper liable? You need a yes or no here, and yif you are unsure, then check the NtK against the POFA2012, schedule 4, para 9 online. 

i have looked through pofa para 9 and the notice and i think they do. not an expert though so i tried to post a pic but not sure its clear enough to read.

https://i.postimg.cc/25KF1RJr/pcn-front.jpg

paulb76

i do not think the link above worked.
i can attach these directly though as they are not text to read.
Note the obvious signs directing drivers to parking enforcement on entry!

paulb76

And this is the area the car was positioned by the gap in the fencing.
The red sign you can see is in the Mcd car park, as is the other one on the left lamp post facing the other way.
There is a parking sign on the low level fence further to the left but vehicles park over the fence anyway as i believe was the case.
Hardly making the enforcement "clear and obvious"