Storage heater alternative.... Infrared vs lpg vs Air source heat pump 12 April 2021 at 9:50AM in LPG, heating oil, solid & other fuels 83 replies 3.2K views

lohr500

Reed_Richards said:

Our oil boiler was installed in 2012 and was unreliable, we had to maintain a service contract and had to call-out an engineer at least once a year.  The annual fee, if we had renewed this year, would have been £258.  But it was worth it, we had to replace the pump earlier in 2020.  So in my experience "£80 pa to have it serviced" is wildly optimistic.  Remember the cost of replacement parts as well as labour.

I went for a simple Grant heat only boiler with a full 10 year parts and labour warranty. Only condition is that it has an annual service by a Grant approved engineer. The firm that installed it are Grant approved and they have quoted £80 for the annual service. No doubt this will increase with inflation, but so does everything. The 10 year warranty was a big factor in my purchase decision.

matelodave

this is what I wrote on the sunbject of cost and reliability on the ASHP thread. It's my experience after over ten years and eleven winters


The supply and installation and commisioning cost of the whole system came to £14k of which the heatpump and associated hot water tank was £7.5k. The rest of the cost was for 140m2 of underfloor heating rather than radiators.. 

I guess that an oil boiler and associated tank together with underfloor heating would have been around £10-£11k. (we'd already decided that we wanted u/f heating rather than rads whatever the source) An LPG boiler probably would have been cheaper to instal as you end up hiring the tank but there's still the cost of a concrete plinth and piping as there is a with an oil tank.

My estimate for a "like for like" system is that the heat pump cost around £4k more than an oil installation and £5k more than LPG. We've actually just had £5k back fro the RHI so that's cancelled out the cost difference. Running costs are more difficult to compare as we dont have a before and after reference as we moved in and pulled everything out.

However if you assume that the EPC is anywhere close then we should have been using around 12500kwh for heating and 2500 for hot water = 15,000kwh. (the EPC dosen't include other stuff like washing, cooking TV etc). 

We actually use around 7200kwh of leccy a year for evrything and I guess half is for heating and half is for the rest , including hot water - our summer consumption is around 300kwh a month. (last year we used exactly 7199). We pay 12.25/kwh plus 13p s/c we are currently paying just under £1000 a year. Compare that with say 15,000kwh of oil at 4p/kwh (heating and hot water) plus around 3000kwh of leccy = £600 + £400 = £1000, so about on a par.

Anything else apart from mains gas (which we cant get) would have been a lot more expensive to run. You could do similar sums based on kwh costs for other forms of heating/fuels

We dont have a big tank in the garden nor tankers delivering (we have squadrons up and down our road at this time of the year) and mainenance costs are virtually non existent although the unvented hot water tank should be checked annually by a registered plumber, we've had it checked over three times in ten years..

I'd still have mainsns gas but it's not and never will be available where we live, so I reckon we have the best solution for us - it may not suit others but it works for our home all day lifestyle.

BTW we've had one problem with the heatpump since we've had it -  a sticking flow switch. Reported by the controller and I fixed it myself for no cost.

The u/f system has had two thermal actuators die but cheap and easy to replace at £15 each from Amazon (I've now got a spare, just in case but they dont stop the system from working)

Reed_Richards

lohr500 said:

I went for a simple Grant heat only boiler with a full 10 year parts and labour warranty. Only condition is that it has an annual service by a Grant approved engineer. The firm that installed it are Grant approved and they have quoted £80 for the annual service. No doubt this will increase with inflation, but so does everything. The 10 year warranty was a big factor in my purchase decision.

That's very good indeed, if the price of the boiler was competitive.  But you'll still have to pay a plumber to inspect your pressurised hot water tank each year, if you have one.

Cardew

On this forum we have had similar discussions on the cost of gas, oil and electricity over the past 10 years; and here we are in April 2021 still guessing(gambling?) on the best way for the future.  

According to Government figures over the last 10 years the price of CH oil has ranged from a high of 68.5p/litre(Feb 2013) to a low of 28.6p/litre. i.e. 2.8p/kWh to 6.4p/kWh.

At the lowest price oil was marginally cheaper than gas for CH when you factor in the daily standing charge. Bear in mind that gas prices have reduced in recent years.

Is your Crystal Ball any better than mine – which is useless – on the way oil/gas/electricity prices will change over the next 10 years?

We can all think of scenarios affecting prices over the next 10 years.

An international crisis could cause oil prices to rocket. On the other hand there are billions of barrels left in producing oilfields and countries will have a strong incentive to sell it at low prices.

The USA/Canada/Russia  have enough gas to supply the world for years.

Will electricity companies introduce Time of Use tariffs for our domestic supply? Will that impact heat pumps?

Will domestic batteries to store Renewable energy/cheap mains electricity become practical?  

Obviously many more scenarios and over all those scenarios will be the impact of Government taxation policy.

Considering the above, I am surprised at how much capital some people are prepared to spend to reduce running costs.

We are told that the average property uses 13,600 kWh pa for CH and HW. So a reduction of 1p/kWh saves £136 a year.

So if you have Oil CH at prices today it will cost approx. 4.5p/kWh. Gas is around 2.5p-3.0p/kWh and a Heat pump 4.0p – 5.0p/kWh.  So even changing from Oil to Gas is only likely to save around £250pa and changing to a heat pump virtually nothing. Yet the outlay for that change is £thousands.

Reed_Richards

Cardew said:....

So if you have Oil CH at prices today it will cost approx. 4.5p/kWh. Gas is around 2.5p-3.0p/kWh and a Heat pump 4.0p – 5.0p/kWh.  So even changing from Oil to Gas is only likely to save around £250pa and changing to a heat pump virtually nothing. Yet the outlay for that change is £thousands.

  

My oil cost me £4.37 p per kWh between October 2018 and December 2020.  It's a bit approximate because I started and finished with roughly half a tank and I assume 10.35 kWh per litre..  The outlay to change from oil to a heat pump is indeed thousands, but fortunately the Government subsidises this change via the Renewable Heat Incentive at present.

In the UK we generate a lot of wind energy so using electricity is greener than burning oil or gas.  Since the climate crisis obliges us to burn less fuel it seems likely that the Government will adjust adjust taxation and policy to favour electricity usage for heating, as it plans to do with cars.    

Cardew

Reed_Richards said:

Cardew said:....

So if you have Oil CH at prices today it will cost approx. 4.5p/kWh. Gas is around 2.5p-3.0p/kWh and a Heat pump 4.0p – 5.0p/kWh.  So even changing from Oil to Gas is only likely to save around £250pa and changing to a heat pump virtually nothing. Yet the outlay for that change is £thousands.

  

My oil cost me £4.37 p per kWh between October 2018 and December 2020.  It's a bit approximate because I started and finished with roughly half a tank and I assume 10.35 kWh per litre..  The outlay to change from oil to a heat pump is indeed thousands, but fortunately the Government subsidises this change via the Renewable Heat Incentive at present.

In the UK we generate a lot of wind energy so using electricity is greener than burning oil or gas.  Since the climate crisis obliges us to burn less fuel it seems likely that the Government will adjust adjust taxation and policy to favour electricity usage for heating, as it plans to do with cars.    

Agreed.

Even after the RHI subsidy most people will still be paying £thousands for changing from oil to a Heat pump to get no real reduction in running costs.

I was discussing the impact over the next 10 years and did state 'over all those scenarios will be the impact of Government taxation policy.' .

It will take a lot more resolve than recent Governments have shown to make serious changes to our 'cheap fuel' policy; as it is a sure fire vote loser.

shinytop

lohr500 said:

@ shinytop. I have no doubt that your ASHP system will be cheaper to run than a house full of storage heaters.
But one has to wonder how the running costs would compare if you had opted for an oil system.
It would be interesting to know how many kWh you have used over the 10 days and what the cost of that electricity was including a proportion of any standing charge based on ASHP usage vs total usage.

With a modern condensing oil boiler running at 93% efficiency and heating oil at £0.40 per litre inc VAT, the cost of 1kWh of heat works out at £0.042. For an ASHP with a generous COP of 3:1, to get 3kWh of heat out, you would need to be buying electricity at less than £0.126 per kWh to match the oil cost per kWh of available heat.
And I do worry about the claimed COP values for ASHP, particularly when its cold outside, the very time you need more heat in the house.  

I agree 100% that oil is not environmentally friendly and if we could have switched to an ASHP or some other form of renewable supply for at or around the same cost, I would have done it.
I was also a little worried about the fact that the RHI grant is linked to the property, not the individual, so if we were to downsize within the 7 year grant window we would stop receiving the payments despite making the full up front commitment to the installation.  

@Iohr500, over the 10 days, the ASHP used 326 kWh at a COP of 3.16 so used 1030kWh.  I'm paying 11.6p per kWh plus 23p per day.  So I'm marginally better off than with oil but I realise this could swing either way depending on prices weather, etc. I also know that when this deal runs out the next one won't be as good. But as you say it's a lot cheaper (and it's also better) than a load of old storage heaters, with the added bonus that the taxpayer is paying for most of thre installation costs via RHI. 

I looked into ASHPs very carefully and it seems like one will suit us and our house.  We don't plan on moving any time soon and whatever happens with government policy in the future, it will tend to make direct fossil fuel consumption for heating less attractive. 

I'm certainly no eco-warrior though; in your position I would probably have replaced my oil boiler too.  But at least having an ASHP makes me feel a bit better about not wanting an EV and liking foreign holidays   

shinytop

Cardew said:

On this forum we have had similar discussions on the cost of gas, oil and electricity over the past 10 years; and here we are in April 2021 still guessing(gambling?) on the best way for the future.  

According to Government figures over the last 10 years the price of CH oil has ranged from a high of 68.5p/litre(Feb 2013) to a low of 28.6p/litre. i.e. 2.8p/kWh to 6.4p/kWh.

At the lowest price oil was marginally cheaper than gas for CH when you factor in the daily standing charge. Bear in mind that gas prices have reduced in recent years.

Is your Crystal Ball any better than mine – which is useless – on the way oil/gas/electricity prices will change over the next 10 years?

We can all think of scenarios affecting prices over the next 10 years.

An international crisis could cause oil prices to rocket. On the other hand there are billions of barrels left in producing oilfields and countries will have a strong incentive to sell it at low prices.

The USA/Canada/Russia  have enough gas to supply the world for years.

Will electricity companies introduce Time of Use tariffs for our domestic supply? Will that impact heat pumps?

Will domestic batteries to store Renewable energy/cheap mains electricity become practical?  

Obviously many more scenarios and over all those scenarios will be the impact of Government taxation policy.

Considering the above, I am surprised at how much capital some people are prepared to spend to reduce running costs.

We are told that the average property uses 13,600 kWh pa for CH and HW. So a reduction of 1p/kWh saves £136 a year.

So if you have Oil CH at prices today it will cost approx. 4.5p/kWh. Gas is around 2.5p-3.0p/kWh and a Heat pump 4.0p – 5.0p/kWh.  So even changing from Oil to Gas is only likely to save around £250pa and changing to a heat pump virtually nothing. Yet the outlay for that change is £thousands.

Isn't it a bit like EVs?  For most people changing from their existing ICE car to an EV doesn't make economic sense but plenty do it.  It's a lifestyle choice (and there is nothing wrong with that). Being eco-friendly costs money.  

Reed_Richards

The OP (who has not yet returned to comment) wants to replace storage heaters.  If I was installing any radiator-based central heating from scratch I would try to future-proof it by designing it to run with a water flow temperature of no greater than 50 C.  That way whatever boiler you choose now can later be replaced by an ASHP without the need to change the radiators.    

Mickey666

Reed_Richards said:

My LG ASHP has a 7 year warranty.  My installer will perform an annual service at a cost of £150.  I'm not sure how necessary this is but an annual inspection of any pressurised water tank is mandatory, whatever is heating your water.

Really?  What legislation is this then?  What's the penalty if you DON'T have an annual inspection?