Employer (Ford Motor Company) Didn't Pay National Insurance - State Pension Diminished

RedditchResident

hyubh said:

RedditchResident said:

xylophone said:

Something I failed to make clear, Ford openly admits it didn't pay the NICs for the year.

Neither employee nor employer contributions?

Was NICO negligent in not following this up?

Presumably you checked your monthly pay slips for deductions - if no NI did it not occur to you to query this?

My payslip appeared normal. They should have remitted NICs to HMRC but they didn't and they admit they didn't.

NB: that may well trump the suggestion I was going to make. But I'll make it anyway 
...
To be clear however, this is a different approach to approaching HMRC with evidence Ford payroll admitting they made a mistake. Depending on how clearcut the latter is, that may be more powerful - the GMP rec one was just my own line of thinking before.

Hi hyubh, thank you for your interest and input.  Ford's admission is clear cut.  It is in writing and contained in the letter I received from their lawyer.  I think the involvement of HMRC is my best chance of a satisfactory outcome to this.  It is true that I am time barred at law.  It is also true that Ford has shown no inclination to behave responsibly.  Spending multiples of the cost of resolving the issue with a city law firm unavoidably raises suspicions.   They may find it more difficult to behave badly in the eyes of HMRC.  

molerat

30 years is pushing the boundaries of what even HMRC can do anything about.  The best option I feel is shaming in the national press.  I good article can often beat a thousand high paid lawyer's protestations.

RedditchResident

molerat said:

30 years is pushing the boundaries of what even HMRC can do anything about.  The best option I feel is shaming in the national press.  I good article can often beat a thousand high paid lawyer's protestations.

I think you are right about that.  Getting the attention of the right one is of course the challenge.  I am on it.  As always, I appreciate the interest and input.

DairyQueen

OP: I reconciled my SP with official records following the intro of the nSP. I found several errors which included the failure of a 1990s employer to pay NI deducted from my salary to HMRC. This old thread may be worth a look. It includes posts and links (courtesy of xylophone in particular) to other threads which explain how the starting amount is calculated and also provides examples of how errors could occur. It may help with your understanding of the complexities introduced into the SP calculation by SERPS/S2P.

The process of reconciliation is time-consuming. I had to obtain a full breakdown of my NI record plus contracted-in/out periods (and schemes) held by both HMRC and DWP. The two records should be the same but, certainly prior to the COPE reconciliation referred to upthread, they were prone to error.

I went through a steep learning curve, with much help from MSE contributors, to understand how the system worked and, following that, identified which employers had failed to pay NI and under what circumstances. I then contacted the employers and/or the schemes seeking clarification from their records and documented the entire history in a long letter to DWP. Several months later, and after chasing, DWP wrote back with the results of their investigation. All of the errors, bar one, had been rectified and my starting amount was recalculated, increased by the equivalent of four years NI, and post-2016 years added. The o/s issue didn't make any difference to achieving full nSP so I let that slide.

If HMRC has a record of you being contracted-out into the Ford Pension Scheme in 1990 then it has evidence that NI was deducted (from you) and due (to them) for that tax year, be it at the reduced contracted-out rate. Presumably Ford also failed to pay the employer NI due. It is up to DWP/HMRC to investigate as this is not a civil matter - it is a failure by a limited company to pay tax (NI being tax by another name) owed to HMRC. I may be wrong but I don't think such matters are time-barred. I also believe that such late payments are subject to interest. 30 years worth in this case.

Amazingly Ford have admitted that they failed to pay. In your position I would contact HMRC immediately. Check the NI records they hold for you for 1990 and explain the evidence Ford has kindly provided of their screw-up. Follow-up with a letter to both HMRC and DWP enclosing a copy of Ford's admission.  It is up to the tax bods to investigate, recover the NI due and to credit your NI record.

This assumes that Ford deducted the NI from you and failed to pay HMRC. I have no idea what the situation is if Ford failed to collect the NI from you in the first place.

RedditchResident

DairyQueen said:

OP: I reconciled my SP with official records following the intro of the nSP. I found several errors which included the failure of a 1990s employer to pay NI deducted from my salary to HMRC. This old thread may be worth a look. It includes posts and links (courtesy of xylophone in particular) to other threads which explain how the starting amount is calculated and also provides examples of how errors could occur. It may help with your understanding of the complexities introduced into the SP calculation by SERPS/S2P.
...
...
. It is up to DWP/HMRC to investigate as this is not a civil matter - it is a failure by a limited company to pay tax (NI being tax by another name) owed to HMRC. I may be wrong but I don't think such matters are time-barred. I also believe that such late payments are subject to interest. 30 years worth in this case.

Amazingly Ford have admitted that they failed to pay. In your position I would contact HMRC immediately. Check the NI records they hold for you for 1990 and explain the evidence Ford has kindly provided of their screw-up. Follow-up with a letter to both HMRC and DWP enclosing a copy of Ford's admission.  It is up to the tax bods to investigate, recover the NI due and to credit your NI record.

This assumes that Ford deducted the NI from you and failed to pay HMRC. I have no idea what the situation is if Ford failed to collect the NI from you in the first place.

DairyQueen, this is music to my ears.  What you say supports a growing conviction I have that HMRC will sort Ford out.  I spoke to HMRC on the phone and at their request wrote to confirm the details.  Sent by recorded delivery.  I will keep all on this thread updated on progress and I am grateful for the support and helpful comments.
 

DairyQueen

RedditchResident said:

 I will keep all on this thread updated on progress 
 

Yes, please do. The more we share these issues the more likely it is that others will check their SP calculations and rectify 'anomalies'.

squirrelpie

RedditchResident said:

squirrelpie said:

"

Another way to look at it might be that you were delinquent in not checking, complaining and bringing action within the time limit applicable to such actions. 

I have no idea how people checked their state pension in 1990.  Do you know?

I didn't suggest anybody did or even that they should. I did suggest that you should have checked your payslips to see that the deductions were correct, in this case for NI. And kept all the payslips. I did and have, for one example.

RedditchResident

squirrelpie said:

RedditchResident said:

squirrelpie said:

"

Another way to look at it might be that you were delinquent in not checking, complaining and bringing action within the time limit applicable to such actions. 

I have no idea how people checked their state pension in 1990.  Do you know?

I didn't suggest anybody did or even that they should. I did suggest that you should have checked your payslips to see that the deductions were correct, in this case for NI. And kept all the payslips. I did and have, for one example.

I did check them at the time.  NI was deducted.  Ford doesn't dispute that these were not made over to HMRC.  Having the actual payslips in my possession now would not be of that much use.