Employer (Ford Motor Company) Didn't Pay National Insurance - State Pension Diminished

Thrugelmir

RedditchResident said:

Thrugelmir said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

I think this thread is going nowhere until you provide the full details of your forecast.

Sounds as if a lot of time has been wasted elsewhere already. 

Might be good if you limit yourself to constructive contributions.  You asked a rather irrelevant question already answered several times if you read the thread.  I answered you.

Purely an observation. 

RedditchResident

xylophone said:

I joined Ford as a graduate in 1987 and stayed ten years.  

I wasn't contracted out.

They will be paying my occupational pension 

I would be  surprised if  1987 - 97 the Ford Pension Scheme  were not a Contracted Out Salary Related  Pension Scheme.

OP, do you have a Statement of Deferred Benefits from your time at Fords?

If so, does it show pre 88 GMP

Post 88 GMP

Excess?

I think you might be right about the Ford scheme.  There was an option at the level of the individual that I declined but the scheme in its entirety might have been contracted out.  Is this relevant?  When I spoke to HMRC they did not make any reference to it.  They simply said that Ford didn't appear to have made any contributions for 1990 and I would lose out as a consequence.  However I am waiting for a comprehensive reply from HMRC after they have raised the matter with Ford.   If it seems relevant I can look up GMP but I have to say I don't know what that is at this moment in time.

p00hsticks

 

RedditchResident said:

hyubh said:

RedditchResident said:

I have a reasonable expectation of several healthy decades.  I don't drink or smoke and I take regular exercise.  The state pension is paid through until death.  Because of this mistake, or whatever it was, on the part of Ford I lose out every year of retirement.  

It really isn't clear on the information you have given that the missing year has actually made a difference. You've been asked a few times whether your state pension forecast refers to a 'COPE' amount - does it? And your Ford pension - does the documentation refer to a 'GMP'...?

I don't know what COPE is.  There is no mention of it I can see on the state pension online forecast.  See my response to 'dazed_and_confused' for what I am able to copy paste from the gov pages.

Below where it gives you the option to view your NI record, does it have a heading that says 'You’ve been in a contracted-out pension scheme' ? If so, if you click on the link immediately below it (where it says 'Like most people your were contracted out of part of the State Pension' ) that will take you to another page that explains what COPE (Contracted Out Pension Equivalent) is and what your particular COPE figure is.

Personally I think your focus on the missing year from Ford is probably misdirected, especially as it is now too late to make that year up.  You should be concentrating on the other 21 years where you appear not to have contributed enough. When were they ?  Athough your forecast says that you can usually only pay for the last 6 years, there has been an extention granted following the intorduction of the new State Pension in 2016 for men born after 5/4/1951 and women born after 5/4/1953, meaning that you have until April 2023 to fill any gaps between April 2006 and April 2016.

https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-national-insurance-contributions/deadlines

Note that depending on when those 25 years of full contributions happened, the number of pre-2016 years that would actually result in an increase in your pension forecast if you purchased them may be less than the number actually available. If you can provide more details on which years are full and which are not people here can help, and/or you could speak to the future Pensions Centre (althoguh I believe they are currently coping with a large backlog of work due to Covid) 

https://www.gov.uk/future-pension-centre

Marcon

Marcon said:

In any case, this isn't years of NI - OP was employed by Ford from 1987 to 1997 and has said ' I learned that in 1990 my then employer Ford Motor Company, Brentwood, Essex made no National Insurance Contributions for me'.   

Any pay records will be long gone, but if OP's state pension forecast shows they were contracted out of SERPS during 1990 (which will be the case if they were in what was then the 'main' Ford pension scheme), they must by definition have an NI record for that year - in which case it sounds like an error at NICO's end.

I've already pointed out that you would have been contracted out of SERPS if you joined the pension scheme.

xylophone

If you have a GMP then at some stage you were contracted out of SERPS/S2P.

There will be a COPE shown in your pension forecast.

Have a look at this, produced in 2016 to coincide with the introduction of new state pension.

https://www.dpf.org.uk/explorer/files/TOPPING-UP-YOUR-STATE-PENSION-GUIDE.pdf

RedditchResident

p00hsticks said:

 

RedditchResident said:

hyubh said:...

Hi p00hsticks,
Thank you for your input.  You are right, there is a COPE figure of £53.44.  It also says "This will not affect your State Pension forecast". I think that I have lots of options to make up the impairment to my state pension arising from non-payment of National Insurance Contributions by Ford in 1990.  The point for me is that Ford caused the problem and Ford should rectify it.   When I spoke to HMRC it seemed pretty straightforward.  They gave me to believe that because Ford made no NICs that year 1990 is not a qualifying year and I lose out pro rata.  Yes, I can buy years out of my own pocket.  Should I have to do that because Ford is delinquent?  If Ford made an honest mistake then well and good.  It is true however that I have a lot of colleagues who were on the same terms and conditions as me at the time and potentially victims of the same unfortunate 'mistake'.  It would be much easier to accept that this was a simple administrative error if Ford were not going to such mind boggling lengths to avoid simply making up this paltry sum.  I have a growing folder of missives from Lewis Silken, hourly rate £700.   As someone here already mentioned, even in today's money a year of contributions wouldn't buy an hour and a half of Lewis Silken.   What is that about?   I ask myself.  I may lose out in the end, cheated by Ford.  Their resources are for practical purposes unlimited and I am a pensioner.  Doesn't make them right.  And I don't intend to make it easy for them.  I hope lots of forumites see their way clear to signing my petition to Parliament.  https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/564683

RedditchResident

Marcon said:

Marcon said:

... must by definition have an NI record for that year - in which case it sounds like an error at NICO's end.

I've already pointed out that you would have been contracted out of SERPS if you joined the pension scheme.

OK, sorry if I am being thick.  I think I understand the point you are making.  The NICO (or latter day equivalent) should be able to look up what was or was not paid.  I believe the record you refer to is the one HMRC consulted when they told me over the phone that no contributions were made.  Contributions that they say should have been made.  Ford simply says they are not interested so I am not sure where I go from there.  Beyond waiting to see what comes of HMRC's investigations.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

I don't think what was or wasn't paid is relevant.  It was what was or wasn't reported by your employer. 

Payment would be between Ford and HMRC, nothing to do with you.

Do you have your P60 for the tax year in question to show that NIC was deducted?

RedditchResident

xylophone said:

If you have a GMP then at some stage you were contracted out of SERPS/S2P.

There will be a COPE shown in your pension forecast.

Have a look at this, produced in 2016 to coincide with the introduction of new state pension.

https://www.dpf.org.uk/explorer/files/TOPPING-UP-YOUR-STATE-PENSION-GUIDE.pdf

OK but why am I having to make up qualifying years out of my own pocket to compensate for Ford neglecting to pay taxes due under the law of the land?  Yes, I agree they can get away with it because they are a corporate brute.  Doesn't make it right.  I need any and every avenue to fight them.

xylophone

You are right, there is a COPE figure of £53.44.  It also says "This will not affect your State Pension forecast".

It did affect the calculation of your "starting amount" (here  called "foundation amount"  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/210299/single-tier-valuation-contracting-out.pdf ) for new state pension.

At 6/4/16 two calculations were done for you

NI years/30 x £119.30  + (SERPS - Deduction for Contracting Out)

(NI years/35 x £155.65)  - COPE.

Your "starting amount" was the higher of the two.

In the link above the COPE is the "rebate derived amount".

Now  read link in my previous.