How will old houses be heated in 20 years time?

Cardew

Mickey666 said:

However, I am finding that burning witches is becoming ever more problematic these days due to the more liberal modern attitudes to such things. 

No wonder Harry Potter dislikes you so much!

Mickey666

sign of the times I'm afraid

A._Badger

Gerry1 said:

A._Badger said:

there isn't a hope in Hades that we will be able either to build or finance enough nuclear capacity to balance demand when the wind doesn't blow.. It's simply not going to happen and the sooner our ridiculous politicians realise it the sooner we'll stand some chance of keeping the lights on. 

They have realised.  'Demand Side Response' is their answer.

In Plain English, DSR means that you'll have to use electricity when it suits the industry, not when you want to use it.  If surge pricing doesn't achieve this, it will be enforced via smart meters, which have several built in facilities including Load Limiting and Load Shedding to achieve this.

Sadly, I know this, which is why I wage an often lonely and frustrating war against smart meters on here -  particularly in the face of the steely-eyed zealots who refuse to believe what the government and its team of eco-crank advisors have admitted is the truth.

A._Badger

Mickey666 said:

A._Badger said:

Personally, I hope that before 20 years have passed people will have woken up to the political trojan horse that is 'Green' dogma.
Absent which, as the owner of a house that is over 400 years old, I will just have to stuff a bit more newspaper into the cracks in the walls and get back to burning witches. Always assuming we're still allowed to have newspapers, of course. 

Ditto.  For all my SG draughty windows and relatively poor insulation, I reckon my house is a lot greener than most modern breeding boxes.  For a start it is mostly built from sustainable resource (oak frame, wattle&daub, lime mortar, etc) so its embedded energy has caused almost zero environmental effects, and even tough I have mains gas, my bills are comparable to friends in more contemporary houses because I don't even try to heat all rooms to 22C all year round and my afternoon/evening heating is largely derived from burning wood from my own trees.  So it's a myth that old houses are necessarily bad for the environment. 
However, I am finding that burning witches is becoming ever more problematic these days due to the more liberal modern attitudes to such things.  Shame really as it will only drive up my mains gas consumption.

And as if by magic (geddit?) I have just read that tomorrow we are anticipating extreme low temperatures and that the entire output from the desecrated acres (I'm on a roll here!) beneath windmills is expected to be a truly demonic 1GW.  Yes, a whole GW - or even less!!! Now, where is that coven when I need one...?

Actually, to be honest, I rather like witches, they are part of the local scenery here and are mostly harmless. I'll have to find some other group to incinerate on the village green. Any suggestions..? 

bobfredbob

I thought in addition to DSR, new appliances such as fridges would monitor National Grid frequency and automatically cut out for a while if there were shortages of electricity (so grid goes to 47hz and things cut out).  Did that ever get passed?

I looked at new builds and only a couple had what I'd call new features such as heat recovery and UFH.  I naively expected all new builds to be "A" energy, but the few that provided certificates weren't.

If UFH takes (say) 4 hours to warm a room instead of half hour for a radiator then my boiler is running for far longer so surely it will wear out sooner so I end up paying more for repairs and electricity for its pump than I save in gas?

Thanks for the info on hydrogen/town gas.  I read a 2010 paper on the town gas replacement and how it can apply to hydrogen.  Sounds like there's a lot of unknowns for if the bulk pipes will leak; and all house burners/meters need to be replaced, and the issue that it burns invisibly so they're concerned people won't know the hob is on.  But the 20% hydrogen idea sounds interesting

Mickey666

DSR regulation via smart appliance monitoring of grid frequency is an interesting idea, though I wonder if the grid control staff would really like to a have a system that they can't readily control.  For example, frequency drops to, say, 48Hz and every smart applicance in the country switches off, leading to a sudden drop in demand and too much generation, leading to a higher grid frequency, so all the smart devices suddenly switch back on, etc.  Could such a situation lead to an uncontrolled 'resonance' effect?  Certainly an interesting idea though.   Perhaps some sort of random time element could be incorporated into the smart applicances such that they don't all switch at the same time.  A bit like Ethernet, where data collisions result in transmitting devices hold off for a random period of time before trying to retransmit.

As for a hydrogen gas grid, I read somewhere recently about a small scale trial begin carried out.  Can't remember the details but it was probably in New Scientist.  I think the 'invisible flame' issue was intending to be solved by adding another gas into the mix . . . a bit like they do with existing natural gas, which is odourless unlike the old coal gas so they add something to it so we can smell it in case of leaks.  As far as hydrogen leakage is concerned, I understand the problem is largely due to the very small size of the hydrogen molecule, compared to natural gas, which makes a truly gas-tight pipes and joints more difficult.  There's also the issue of 'hydrogen embrittlement' cause by the small hydrogen molecules diffusing into the structure of metal containers and pipework, leading to cracking and subsequent gas leakage.

Having said that, these sorts of challenges apply to any new area of science and technology and there's no reason to think that they cannot be solved in one way or another.  The biggest issue is often an economic one, ie a solution can be devised but it turns out to make the solution too expensive to replace an existing technology.  That's the sort of thing we're seeing now with all this 'green' technology - sure, it works but it is often not cost effective compared with burning fossil fuels . . . which then brings the other dreaded variable into the equation - politics

Gerry1

Mickey666 said:

DSR regulation via smart appliance monitoring of grid frequency is an interesting idea, though I wonder if the grid control staff would really like to a have a system that they can't readily control.

DSR with smart meters will be far more granular and won't be limited to specific appliances.  Expensive Time of Use tariffs will deter many people from using ovens, hobs, kettles, tumble dryer showers at the times they wish to use them, typically 4pm - 8pm.  If that doesn't work when demand threatens to exceed supply, then your smart meter will use Load Limiting to ration you to a few kW, e.g. the kettle OR the hob OR the oven OR the tumble dryer, but the 10kW instantaneous shower will definitely be a NoNo.  When push comes to shove on a freezing dark night, Load Shedding can cut you off completely.

Needless to say, there will probably be various 'uninterruptible' tariffs available at a hefty premium, so that if you're rich enough only a fault or wide area power cut can affect you.

Tallerdave

Going back to the topic of insulation,  a light covering of snow is an ideal opportunity to check out your roof to see if you have any hotspots and how your house compares to similar ones around you. 

btr30

Mickey666 said:

As for a hydrogen gas grid, I read somewhere recently about a small scale trial begin carried out.  Can't remember the details but it was probably in New Scientist.

A hydrogen gas network is being installed near me in Methil, Fife.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/1772401/a-bright-future-for-levenmouth-18m-for-worlds-first-project-to-heat-homes-with-100-green-hydrogen/amp/

JezR

Town gas was typically 50% hydrogen and 35% methane, the rest being mainly carbon monoxide.
Currently installed gas appliances would be capable of adjusting to some mixture (maybe less readily than the more simple boilers of the 1970s going the other way) although 100% hydrogen would be a bit challenging ...