How will old houses be heated in 20 years time?

[Deleted User]

Ectophile said:

Wobbly_Bob said:

Ectophile said:

Dolor said:

Proponents of Hydrogen shouldn’t forget that Hydrogen created by electrolysis is only 62% heat efficient as the electricity from which it was produced. (Source New Scientist).

I can believe that figure.  But if it's a windy day, and you've got more electricity than you know what do do with, then it's worth doing something to store the spare energy instead of shutting down wind farms.

Batteries are more efficient than converting electricity to hydrogen.

But hydrogen tanks are cheaper than batteries.

That could well be true, to a point, but what about the cost to modify the infrastructure to deliver the hydrogen? For instance, Pumps, Pipework, Appliances, Leakage.

Batteries simply require an inverter at source, already a proven technology and widely available. Then of course as i mentioned previously, dropping a large weight down a mineshaft (Gravitricity).

I suspect as a recent article in the Guardian illustrates, going forward all these technologies will be used, where appropriate.

A._Badger

Wobbly_Bob said:

Ectophile said:

Wobbly_Bob said:

Ectophile said:

Dolor said:

Proponents of Hydrogen shouldn’t forget that Hydrogen created by electrolysis is only 62% heat efficient as the electricity from which it was produced. (Source New Scientist).

I can believe that figure.  But if it's a windy day, and you've got more electricity than you know what do do with, then it's worth doing something to store the spare energy instead of shutting down wind farms.

Batteries are more efficient than converting electricity to hydrogen.

But hydrogen tanks are cheaper than batteries.

That could well be true, to a point, but what about the cost to modify the infrastructure to deliver the hydrogen? For instance, Pumps, Pipework, Appliances, Leakage.

Batteries simply require an inverter at source, already a proven technology and widely available. Then of course as i mentioned previously, dropping a large weight down a mineshaft (Gravitricity).

I suspect as a recent article in the Guardian illustrates, going forward all these technologies will be used, where appropriate.

For a sober look at the prospects for hydrogen, this takes some beating:  https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2021/02/01/the-crippling-cost-of-hydrogen/

As for batteries, as things stand they are nowhere near answering the world's energy needs on grounds of cost, capacity and the damage caused to the environment by mining the materials essential in their construction. That may change in the future, but why gamble  on a 'maybe'? Especially when we as a country are sitting on gigantic reserves of clean, cheap gas. 

[Deleted User]

A._Badger said:

For a sober look at the prospects for hydrogen, this takes some beating:  https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2021/02/01/the-crippling-cost-of-hydrogen/

As for batteries, as things stand they are nowhere near answering the world's energy needs on grounds of cost, capacity and the damage caused to the environment by mining the materials essential in their construction. That may change in the future, but why gamble  on a 'maybe'? Especially when we as a country are sitting on gigantic reserves of clean, cheap gas. 

I don't think i would go that far looking at this:-

https://www.worldometers.info/gas/uk-natural-gas/

Apparently UK has 3 years of gas left. According to that site we are exporting gas, as well a buying it from abroad. Why is a mystery to me.

I was only interested in all this because my boiler, now 18 years old, is showing signs of fragility.

I did read that 'The World' has 42-50 years worth of gas left....presumably at current consumption levels, (which are always going up because of population expansion).

Which would be soothing news for my prospective new boiler, assuming we can actually buy that gas from them

A._Badger

Wobbly_Bob said:

A._Badger said:

For a sober look at the prospects for hydrogen, this takes some beating:  https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2021/02/01/the-crippling-cost-of-hydrogen/

As for batteries, as things stand they are nowhere near answering the world's energy needs on grounds of cost, capacity and the damage caused to the environment by mining the materials essential in their construction. That may change in the future, but why gamble  on a 'maybe'? Especially when we as a country are sitting on gigantic reserves of clean, cheap gas. 

I don't think i would go that far looking at this:-

https://www.worldometers.info/gas/uk-natural-gas/

Apparently UK has 3 years of gas left. According to that site we are exporting gas, as well a buying it from abroad. Why is a mystery to me.

I was only interested in all this because my boiler, now 18 years old, is showing signs of fragility.

I did read that 'The World' has 42-50 years worth of gas left....presumably at current consumption levels, (which are always going up because of population expansion).

Which would be soothing news for my prospective new boiler, assuming we can actually buy that gas from them

You need  to be extremely cautious when researching figures for gas (or any fossil fuel come to that). A furious campaign of dis and misinformation has been waged by 'Global Warming' alarmists and even asking the questions as carefully as you can via a search engine will result in a tsunami of propaganda,.

The figure you quote for gas reserves relates to dear old 'North Sea gas', which we have been happily using for a few decades.

Of  interest for the future are shale gas reserves. Of these, the British Geological Survey estimates reserves in northern England alone could amount to 1,300 trillion cubic feet (tcf) of gas. Even if only ten per cent of this were used it could meet UK demand for 40 years. Almost certainly, there is much, more yet to be found - and that is just taking account of UK resources.

 

Mintyrbc

I think, where possible, we will move towards home battery collectors, solar panels and air/ground source heat pumps. There are high temp return air source heat pumps being developed for roll out in the next 2 years that give a flow rate of 70 degrees, they are going to use propane as the refrigerant to achieve the higher temp.
I think there is a slight misconception around ASHP, they do not run solidly for 24 hours. If you utilise a buffer, which you really should with an ASHP, the pump will maintain the temp of the buffer so will only come on when the temp of the buffer drops. 
I have had my 1890's cottage retro fitted with one and at a flow temp of 45 degrees it is achieving a room temp through oversized radiators of 20 degrees at around 3 degrees outdoor temp using roughly equivalent cost as when i was running a gas boiler. Below 3 degrees the efficiency starts to drop and the pump starts to work harder and the smart meter shows a slightly increased cost, its not horrific like some make out though. At minus temps the heat pump starts to drop temp is achieving 18.5 degrees through the rads which does feel cold, however Im about to instal underfloor heating throughout the ground floor of the house so expect that to make a good difference.
I have made an effort to insulate the plant room for the cylinder and all the pipework and tried to block all the drafts in the house.
Its worth noting the heat is different from radiator heat, the room achieves the same temp but you don't get radiated really hot heat from a radiator if you stand next to it like you do with gas boilers.
Im on a course learning about hydrogen boilers next week so will have a better view on that then. The stumbling block at the moment is you cant use the existing gas network to power them so unless they have a realistic cell to run them its a huge undertaking to make them viable. 

brewerdave

Mintyrbc said:

I have had my 1890's cottage retro fitted with one and at a flow temp of 45 degrees it is achieving a room temp through oversized radiators of 20 degrees at around 3 degrees outdoor temp using roughly equivalent cost as when i was running a gas boiler. Below 3 degrees the efficiency starts to drop and the pump starts to work harder and the smart meter shows a slightly increased cost, its not horrific like some make out though. At minus temps the heat pump starts to drop temp is achieving 18.5 degrees through the rads which does feel cold, however Im about to instal underfloor heating throughout the ground floor of the house so expect that to make a good difference.
I have made an effort to insulate the plant room for the cylinder and all the pipework and tried to block all the drafts in the house.

The key issue for most people on here (in my view anyway) is the capital cost for such a conversion - much change from £20k ???

Mintyrbc

brewerdave said:

Mintyrbc said:

I have had my 1890's cottage retro fitted with one and at a flow temp of 45 degrees it is achieving a room temp through oversized radiators of 20 degrees at around 3 degrees outdoor temp using roughly equivalent cost as when i was running a gas boiler. Below 3 degrees the efficiency starts to drop and the pump starts to work harder and the smart meter shows a slightly increased cost, its not horrific like some make out though. At minus temps the heat pump starts to drop temp is achieving 18.5 degrees through the rads which does feel cold, however Im about to instal underfloor heating throughout the ground floor of the house so expect that to make a good difference.
I have made an effort to insulate the plant room for the cylinder and all the pipework and tried to block all the drafts in the house.

The key issue for most people on here (in my view anyway) is the capital cost for such a conversion - much change from £20k ???

Yea its a huge outlay. My ASHP was just under £11k, i got financial help via the green home grant to pay for it however that excludes the £1k+ I spent getting the plant room and house ready to take the new system. I pretty much had to re-plumb the entire house in 22mm pipe. If you are getting someone to do that side of the work as well as the ASHP install expect an additional £3k+.
A decent battery like a power vault with adequate size to suit our daily usage is around £12k, the cheap small batteries that hold 5kw won't be fit for purpose. A good Solar array on top of that £6k. Then if you are getting underfloor installed, obv dependant on the size of the space, expect to pay £5k+ per floor of a house. Again much cheaper if you do it yourself.
All this adds up and there needs to be significant investment from the govt to make it feasible for everyone. 
The other limitation is property size. If you live in a block of flats an ASHP won't work for you. However flats could be built with adequately sized GSHP to service the entire buildings heating requirements. That is not going to work for retro fits though so there is a huge gap in the market which is where hydrogen fuel cell boilers could step in. In fact GSHP could be used on new build estates to spread the load over different properties, there are lots of possibilities if the infrastructure is put in place before the houses are built. 

Mickey666

brewerdave said:

Mintyrbc said:

I have had my 1890's cottage retro fitted with one and at a flow temp of 45 degrees it is achieving a room temp through oversized radiators of 20 degrees at around 3 degrees outdoor temp using roughly equivalent cost as when i was running a gas boiler. Below 3 degrees the efficiency starts to drop and the pump starts to work harder and the smart meter shows a slightly increased cost, its not horrific like some make out though. At minus temps the heat pump starts to drop temp is achieving 18.5 degrees through the rads which does feel cold, however Im about to instal underfloor heating throughout the ground floor of the house so expect that to make a good difference.
I have made an effort to insulate the plant room for the cylinder and all the pipework and tried to block all the drafts in the house.

The key issue for most people on here (in my view anyway) is the capital cost for such a conversion - much change from £20k ???

It certainly was for me, especially when I discovered I could get a connection to mains gas for less than £500.  I was fortunate in that I could have afforded the £20k-ish installation of a GSHP but it simply didn't make financial sense given that the running costs would have been roughly the same as mains gas, so the return on investment would have stretched way beyond my lifetime.

[Deleted User]

A._Badger said:

You need  to be extremely cautious when researching figures for gas (or any fossil fuel come to that). A furious campaign of dis and misinformation has been waged by 'Global Warming' alarmists and even asking the questions as carefully as you can via a search engine will result in a tsunami of propaganda,.The figure you quote for gas reserves relates to dear old 'North Sea gas', which we have been happily using for a few decades. Of  interest for the future are shale gas reserves. Of these, the British Geological Survey estimates reserves in northern England alone could amount to 1,300 trillion cubic feet (tcf) of gas. Even if only ten per cent of this were used it could meet UK demand for 40 years. Almost certainly, there is much, more yet to be found - and that is just taking account of UK resources.

Propaganda?

Mickey666

A._Badger said:

You need  to be extremely cautious when researching figures for gas (or any fossil fuel come to that). A furious campaign of dis and misinformation has been waged by 'Global Warming' alarmists and even asking the questions as carefully as you can via a search engine will result in a tsunami of propaganda,.

The figure you quote for gas reserves relates to dear old 'North Sea gas', which we have been happily using for a few decades.

Of  interest for the future are shale gas reserves. Of these, the British Geological Survey estimates reserves in northern England alone could amount to 1,300 trillion cubic feet (tcf) of gas. Even if only ten per cent of this were used it could meet UK demand for 40 years. Almost certainly, there is much, more yet to be found - and that is just taking account of UK resources.

I'm sure that's basically correct.  However, it's important to consider the increasing difficulty of exploiting new fossil fuel reserves, where 'difficulty' really means 'energy'.  During the first oil rush, the stuff was more or less just bubbling out of the ground and was cheap and easy to collect.  Contrast that with deep offshore wells (for example), which require a great deal more energy to exploit.  When the energy cost of extracting fossil fuels becomes the same as the energy value of the fuel itself then it ceases to be an energy resource.  Such reserves may remain an important resource as a raw material, but it won't yield any net energy.  This why fossil fuels will cease to be a source of energy long before they actually run out.