The EV announcement - How will you act now The Quiz.

Herzlos

NBLondon said:

I don't use my car to nip to the shops (I can walk that) or the cinema or anywhere else that might have lots of public chargers.  I use it for cross-country trips to see family or for holidays.  So all of my charging would have to be either pre-planned as part of the route or part of another activity - it doesn't have as much freedom to take up e.g. an impromptu dinner invite from the cousins in deepest Thanet (That's 145 miles round trip - but if the trip computer says I don't have enough petrol, I know I can fill up in less than 10 minutes at any of a dozen points along the way).   But if Gridserve https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/07/uk-first-all-electric-car-charging-forecourt-opens-in-essex  does get 100 stations underway in the next 5 years - that's the gamechanger for me.

That's the pathological worst case (or whatever Adrian comes up with), where the lives on a street without charging and is only used for long trips. But then you just need to ensure it's charged up after the trip (take it to a fuel station, or Tesco) and then you're sorted.

But with that usage pattern I suspect it's probably cheaper in the long run to use a car club or taxis.

Even Adrian, living in deepest Wales and not passing anywhere he could charge, would just need to wait for the infrastructure to catch up.
For most people, a 100 mile EV is more than enough to get to and from work 3 times (average commute is 15 miles), and most people will either be able to charge at home, or at work, or whilst doing the shopping or whatever. The ones that don't will either need to make some lifestyle adjustment or stick with combustion.

The infrastructure right now is a bit crap, but it's much better than it was 10 years ago (my no-name town in the middle of nowhere has 4 different sets of EV charging stations with 4 spaces each). If the same rate of improvement continues in another 10 years we'll have EV charging virtually everywhere at much higher speeds.

AdrianC

Herzlos said:
Even Adrian, living in deepest Wales...

I don't. I live in England.

...and not passing anywhere he could charge

There's public charging in each of the two towns five miles away from me (one in either direction).

There's 1 x 7kW at a bike shop in one town.
There's 2 x 7kW in a public car park in the other town.

Next nearest public chargers from here are ~20 miles.

Herzlos

Sorry, for some reason I thought you were in Wales.
I haven't checked out the ones here in any real detail (2 of them have appeared in the last month) as I haven't bitten the EV bullet yet. There are 4 outside the towns Asda, 4 outside the library 4 in a car park behind the high street and 4 at the train station. I haven't seen more than 2 of the 16 spaces being used so far.

Ditzy_Mitzy

To return to the point in hand: I thought my petrol car had a problem.  It doesn't, therefore continues!!  Long live old petrol cars.  And new ones.  

NBLondon

DrEskimo said:

Haha! To be clear, I paid for the charger at my parents and also upgraded their entire consumer unit. They are of course more than happy to let me charge every couple of weeks when I visit.

But yes, I wouldn't use it as a long term charging solution.

And that's an example of you building a solution that works for you and it's a good one.

My parents do have driveway space; they don't drive much these days so maybe I could do the same.  Except they live 220 miles away so I don't visit that often!

As for piggybacking on the cousins... Of 5 destinations, only 2 have off-road parking.  They have adult children at home and being in rural Kent with limited public transport; the drive is already full.  If they did have a charger, I'd probably be begging to swap with one of them.  Maybe there will come a time when lots of people have chargers and can offer visitors a top-up but it still relies on one side having off-street parking.

Herzlos said:

But then you just need to ensure it's charged up after the trip (take it to a fuel station, or Tesco) and then you're sorted.

Which means an extra trip and possibly a long wait if I can't get a charger straightaway.

But with that usage pattern I suspect it's probably cheaper in the long run to use a car club or taxis.

Did you miss the "impromptu" bit? Taxi from South London to North Kent Coast at 3 hours notice and I don't know whether I'm coming back at 2145 or 2230 or 2310. That's not going to be easy. Car club maybe - there are a few Zipcars in the neighbourhood. But still, I'm gambling that there is one available; that I don't have to get a taxi to it. Ands if it's electric... I'm hoping it has been left with enough charge for the return journey back to the charger.

For most people, a 100 mile EV is more than enough to get to and from work 3 times (average commute is 15 miles), and most people will either be able to charge at home, or at work, or whilst doing the shopping or whatever. The ones that don't will either need to make some lifestyle adjustment or stick with combustion.

That "will either be able to charge at home, or at work," is what I challenged before. OK it's now "most people" rather than "vast majority" but I think it's more like "most people in some circumstances" but "hardly any people in other circumstances". I had a car as a student, I could run a knackered Chevette cheaply and have the convenience. Could I run an elderly Leaf as a student now? Moving every six months between shared houses means it's not likely that I could charge at home. Will there be charging points on campus? Maybe. Will there be enough; will they be expensive? I could see halls of residence adding chargers to their car parks but that's going to be adding to the cost.

The infrastructure right now is a bit crap, but it's much better than it was 10 years ago (my no-name town in the middle of nowhere has 4 different sets of EV charging stations with 4 spaces each). If the same rate of improvement continues in another 10 years we'll have EV charging virtually everywhere at much higher speeds.

I hope so. That's what I'd need to see to make a realistic change to a full-electric.  The lifestyle changes required to make the change now would reduce the convenience (which I why I have a car in the first place)  and I'm not sufficiently motivated by the "being green" drive to do that and not sufficiently convinced that the financial improvement is enough (for me).

Much more likely that I will go hybrid at next change.

Even Adrian, living in ??? and not passing anywhere he could charge, would just need to wait for the infrastructure to catch up.

I live in suburban South London and I'm waiting too. Market forces suggest I should get it before he does. Government policy could actually turn it the other way.

AdrianC

NBLondon said:

But with that usage pattern I suspect it's probably cheaper in the long run to use a car club or taxis.

Did you miss the "impromptu" bit? Taxi from South London to North Kent Coast at 3 hours notice and I don't know whether I'm coming back at 2145 or 2230 or 2310. That's not going to be easy.

Train...?
https://www.thetrainline.com/train-times/whitstable-to-london-victoria

'course, Sarf Lahndun to the North Kent coast isn't actually that far. Croydon to Whitstable is 120 mile round trip.

Herzlos

Herzlos said:

But then you just need to ensure it's charged up after the trip (take it to a fuel station, or Tesco) and then you're sorted.

Which means an extra trip and possibly a long wait if I can't get a charger straightaway.

Yup, just like if you had to queue at a petrol station. Like I said, charging points will appear in line with demand. Have you seen how busy the charging points at your nearest locations are?

But with that usage pattern I suspect it's probably cheaper in the long run to use a car club or taxis.

Did you miss the "impromptu" bit? Taxi from South London to North Kent Coast at 3 hours notice and I don't know whether I'm coming back at 2145 or 2230 or 2310. That's not going to be easy. Car club maybe - there are a few Zipcars in the neighbourhood. But still, I'm gambling that there is one available; that I don't have to get a taxi to it. Ands if it's electric... I'm hoping it has been left with enough charge for the return journey back to the charger.

Not at all, at that distance you're probably best with a car club but again it depends on how often and how flexible you're being. As Adrian mentioned, I'm sure you could at least do some of the trip via train.
Remember you're paying a lot in upkeep for a car (depreciation, tax, insurance, MOT's, servicing, maintenance) to use it occasionally. Maybe the huge mileage and impromptu nature means it's cost effective to do so, but again it sounds like a bit of an outlier.
Even for your impromptu trips, you just need to plan a bit around charging. If you've got an EV with 200 miles range you could get to Margate and back on a single charge, so you just need to pass a fast charger once. Or you could just park it at a charger when you get to the coast. On your return, you may need to make a special trip to get your range back up to ~150 miles, but if you're coming back at midnight then you'll probably find the fast chargers empty.

For most people, a 100 mile EV is more than enough to get to and from work 3 times (average commute is 15 miles), and most people will either be able to charge at home, or at work, or whilst doing the shopping or whatever. The ones that don't will either need to make some lifestyle adjustment or stick with combustion.

That "will either be able to charge at home, or at work," is what I challenged before. OK it's now "most people" rather than "vast majority" but I think it's more like "most people in some circumstances" but "hardly any people in other circumstances". I had a car as a student, I could run a knackered Chevette cheaply and have the convenience. Could I run an elderly Leaf as a student now? Moving every six months between shared houses means it's not likely that I could charge at home. Will there be charging points on campus? Maybe. Will there be enough; will they be expensive? I could see halls of residence adding chargers to their car parks but that's going to be adding to the cost.

It's more people than you think and it'll increase all the time (more range, faster charging, more chargers).
Very few people have a car which never goes anywhere that can be charged. Most will use it for the shopping, or the commute, or for nights out or whatever.
If it's got sufficient range, you absolutely could run an elderly Leaf. You might need to be a bit more careful with journey planning though.
You could still do the London to Margate and back trip in an old Leaf though you'd need to stop and charge at each end. It'd take a bit longer but it'd save you something like 2/3rds of the fuel cost. Meaning you can treat yourself to food/coffee whilst charging, or go out more often. It's already a 2 hour drive in each direction to a 15-30 minute charging shop isn't that big a deal.
Of course, if you can charge at your destination, you don't need to have any additional stops even if you do need to park a bit further away.

You're honestly looking for problems that often don't exist instead of solutions. Sure, EV's aren't a direct placement for ICE's, and not all ICE usage can be easily replaced by EV's, but more than you'd expect can if you think about your actual usage and potentially change your usage model slightly.
I could go to an EV (if I can find one I can afford that'll tow a caravan), and have the vast majority of my journeys work without noticing a difference. In fact it'd be more convenient because I can charge on my driveway and thus I no longer need to worry about running low on fuel and having to detour via a petrol station (I get something like 450 miles to the tank so I always forget).

Ditzy_Mitzy

NBLondon said:

For most people, a 100 mile EV is more than enough to get to and from work 3 times (average commute is 15 miles), and most people will either be able to charge at home, or at work, or whilst doing the shopping or whatever. The ones that don't will either need to make some lifestyle adjustment or stick with combustion.

That "will either be able to charge at home, or at work," is what I challenged before. OK it's now "most people" rather than "vast majority" but I think it's more like "most people in some circumstances" but "hardly any people in other circumstances". I had a car as a student, I could run a knackered Chevette cheaply and have the convenience. Could I run an elderly Leaf as a student now? Moving every six months between shared houses means it's not likely that I could charge at home. Will there be charging points on campus? Maybe. Will there be enough; will they be expensive? I could see halls of residence adding chargers to their car parks but that's going to be adding to the cost.

You raise an interesting point there.  For years, decades now possibly, the planning of public space has operated on the doctrine of walking, cycling and public transport being king.  Not that there's anything wrong with such a policy, of course, but it has drastically reduced parking provision at places such as university campuses, residential buildings, stations, town centres, workplaces and so on.  This has also been popular with developers, which can replace car parks with buildings. 
You might get the odd disabled space here and there nowadays but the net effect has been to push cars out to the periphery.  Motorists who would once have parked at places of work or education now find themselves having to find alternatives such as public car parks or, often, on street parking somewhere nearby.  Whilst this is an inconvenience for drivers of combustion powered cars; it is a severe handicap for battery operated cars as private car parks and streets are not guaranteed to have charging provision.  And if they do there's unlikely to be enough of it.  One might suggest that NCP, for example, electrifies every single parking space; but where is the money going to come from?  Car parks are profitable, but they aren't that profitable.  
Plus there's the issue of swapping cars around.  For instance: John needs to charge his car for two hours so parks in a space with a charger at 9 am.  Julie, also wanting two hours' charging, asks him to move his car at 11 am so she can move into the charging space.  This is fine when the car park is directly outside their office, less good when it's a 20 minute walk away.  One may also argue for manned car parks with attendants to shuffle the cars around and put them on to charge.  But again, who pays for it?  
We seem to be heading inexorably towards turning driving back into a luxury for the very rich.  

Herzlos

One might suggest that NCP, for example, electrifies every single parking space; but where is the money going to come from?  Car parks are profitable, but they aren't that profitable. 

There's still a 1:1 ratio of parking spaces being used, just moved towards the periphery.
There's also no need for all parking spaces to be fast charging - if the car is there all day and hasn't used up it's entire range, it can charge at 3kW which isn't that expensive to do.
NCP exists to make money, if there's demand (and payment) for charging then they'll absolutely add charging to every space.

On street parking is different, but then how many cars parked on the street strictly need to charge from there?

Madmel

For me, 2 key things mean that I really don't want to swap my MPV for an EV.  Last weekend I collected my 2 DDs from uni.  I left home with a nearly full tank of diesel.  Drove 222 miles to DD1.  Loaded the car, had a coffee & toilet stop, set off.  Drove 84 miles to DD2.  Loaded car.  Drove to get some food.  Collected DD2 after her class finished.  Drove 204 miles home.  Car showed 105 miles left in the tank, >500 miles done, no refuelling needed.  With an EV, I would need to charge up at least once, probably twice.  I didn't need to stop on any journey - all legs under 4 hours.
Secondly, I play a large musical instrument which is on a trolley that converts to its stool.  There are very few cars which take this combo. I have not yet found an EV which has the boot/back seat configuration that will take this. My current car fitted in all the DDs' clobber including suitcases, folders, plants, laptops etc.
I have seen discussion here about the Citroen C4.  It might fit in that, but after a terrible experience with Citroen in the past, I would rather avoid unless they are much improved.  Are there other electric MPV-sized vehicles now on the market?