BITCOIN

gravel_2

MeteredOut said:

gravel_2 said:

Another thing holding this kind of development back is the HODL philosophy... BTC hardcore don't actually want to use BTC as currency (right now), as that means holding less BTC. You don't want to be that guy who famously bought a pizza with 10k BTC or one of the thousands who spent millions in today's money on Silk Road.

This is also why platforms like Celsius and Nexo exist. People with large holdings would rather securitise their crypto, take tax-free cashflow in fiat and release their holdings later for the cost of interest payments (paid in fiat). Functionally BTC acts more like a fine art collection or property portfolio than currency in that market, and such market is geared only to those with significant holdings.

Saw an interesting post today where the Microstrategy guy who's into crypto was being interviewed and was advocating for crypto not as a digital currency (he said it was unfortunate it was regarded as that) but as digital property. ie. a store of wealth, but not something you typically buy something else with. Was talking about how the rich buy property.

I was was a bit disappointed the interviewer didn't question him on the return on those investments when compared to property, but it was an interesting thought. Aligns with those that compare it to investing in gold. The difference in volatility was not mentioned either.

I was just scrolling and it was a random feed the algorithm threw at me, so I didn't catch the channel but will see if I can find a link.

The only problem is the question of utility. Real property has obvious uses and therefore intrinsic value, although property valuation is not necessarily tied to intrinsic value. Art, while more subjective and esoteric, is desirable, has value and is tangible. Being a "store of value" or "digital property" is not a utility. And if not a currency, then what's it for? What sustainable need is actually driving the market?

Scottex99

gravel_2 said:

Another thing holding this kind of development back is the HODL philosophy... BTC hardcore don't actually want to use BTC as currency (right now), as that means holding less BTC. You don't want to be that guy who famously bought a pizza with 10k BTC or one of the thousands who spent millions in today's money on Silk Road.

This is also why platforms like Celsius and Nexo exist. People with large holdings would rather securitise their crypto, take tax-free cashflow in fiat and release their holdings later for the cost of interest payments (paid in fiat). Functionally BTC acts more like a fine art collection or property portfolio than currency in that market, and such market is geared only to those with significant holdings.

I’d tend to to agree. 

Celsius went bankrupt btw, I got burned with a few ETH there although I did get maybe 35 cents on the dollar by the end, better than nothing.

I’ve used Nexo in the past with no problem, I’m kind of surprised that it was them and not Celsius that came through the crypto winter but yeah it’s the counterparty risk that you need to factor in.

The pizza guy is a very niche one. On one hand that’s huge money now, on the other he convinced some guy to trade with magic bean money that at the time had no value (and arguably still doesn’t according to most in here haha)

im sure he had plenty other BTC and is still very wealthy.

I have stoner mates who used Silk Road, they are skint too and cursing their luck that the can’t find an old wallet with half a bitcoin in it 

Scottex99

flaneurs_lobster said:

Scottex99 said:

My company has a client that rent supercars, they came to us because their potential clients were coming to them asking about BTC/ETH/USDT etc

If the demand is there it will happen

Does your company accept payment in BTC?

We’re a regulated trading desk/ crypto payments firm so yes, every day 

Scottex99

HHarry said:

Scott,

 Thanks for taking the time to reply.  It’s one of the rare positive posts that doesn’t revert to name calling stereo-types, shout ‘to the moon’, cites uncheckable facts and didn’t introduce a strawman argument.

 I don’t agree with everything (store of value) but learnt that a yield is possible.

 Have a good day!

No worries, you too.

Will put this quote on my wall, lol

Scottex99

Saw an interesting post today where the Microstrategy guy who's into crypto was being interviewed and was advocating for crypto not as a digital currency (he said it was unfortunate it was regarded as that) but as digital property. ie. a store of wealth, but not something you typically buy something else with. Was talking about how the rich buy property.

I was was a bit disappointed the interviewer didn't question him on the return on those investments when compared to property, but it was an interesting thought. Aligns with those that compare it to investing in gold. The difference in volatility was not mentioned either.

I was just scrolling and it was a random feed the algorithm threw at me, so I didn't catch the channel but will see if I can find a link.

Yeah that's Michael Saylor, the biggest Bitcoin Maxi you can get.

Leveraging debt in his company to buy stacks and stacks of BTC. When price goes up, generally the price of his company stocks do too, so he then creates more debt and buys more coins.

It's a bold play, he says he's never selling and already billions in profit, I think his average entry is $35-40k at a guess. If we see $100-150k BTC one day (and sells) he becomes one of the richest guys in the world, if he isnt already

MeteredOut

gravel_2 said:

MeteredOut said:

gravel_2 said:

Another thing holding this kind of development back is the HODL philosophy... BTC hardcore don't actually want to use BTC as currency (right now), as that means holding less BTC. You don't want to be that guy who famously bought a pizza with 10k BTC or one of the thousands who spent millions in today's money on Silk Road.

This is also why platforms like Celsius and Nexo exist. People with large holdings would rather securitise their crypto, take tax-free cashflow in fiat and release their holdings later for the cost of interest payments (paid in fiat). Functionally BTC acts more like a fine art collection or property portfolio than currency in that market, and such market is geared only to those with significant holdings.

Saw an interesting post today where the Microstrategy guy who's into crypto was being interviewed and was advocating for crypto not as a digital currency (he said it was unfortunate it was regarded as that) but as digital property. ie. a store of wealth, but not something you typically buy something else with. Was talking about how the rich buy property.

I was was a bit disappointed the interviewer didn't question him on the return on those investments when compared to property, but it was an interesting thought. Aligns with those that compare it to investing in gold. The difference in volatility was not mentioned either.

I was just scrolling and it was a random feed the algorithm threw at me, so I didn't catch the channel but will see if I can find a link.

The only problem is the question of utility. Real property has obvious uses and therefore intrinsic value, although property valuation is not necessarily tied to intrinsic value. Art, while more subjective and esoteric, is desirable, has value and is tangible. Being a "store of value" or "digital property" is not a utility. And if not a currency, then what's it for? What sustainable need is actually driving the market?

Agreed. I do laugh at some of the fabricated utility some people try to convince themselves exists for some of the meme coins. Looking at you, DogWifHat.

From their website

“WIF isn’t just a cryptocurrency; it’s a symbol of progress, for futuristic transactions, a beacon for those who think ahead. It’s clear that the future belongs to those who embrace innovations like WIF, transcending boundaries & paving a new era in finance and technology.”

Read that again, then appreciate WIF has a market cap of over $3 billion for something that does nothing. The world is crazy, but people make money from crazy things.

Malthusian

$3 billion, pah. Dogecoin has a "market cap" of "$22 billion" despite being explicitly created as a joke.

But it also has a manifesto don'tchaknow:

We are developing a currency for the people, and we strive to do only good everyday. Through this work we have come to value:

Being useful, we value utility over technical brilliance.
Being personable, we value individuals and interactions over profit-driven economics.
Being welcoming, we value collaboration and trust over competition and exclusivity.
Being reliable, we value working solutions over speed of delivery.

As a reminder, this is a distributed spreadsheet entry that (like all crypto tokens) does absolutely nothing except record the ownership of the spreadsheet entry by a given key. Its ringleaders collaborate on absolutely nothing except maintaining the spreadsheet. It solves nothing, and delivers nothing, at a speed of infinity years per thing delivered. But so much real money and so many man-hours have been expended on buying and selling it that somebody felt they had to spend an afternoon cobbling together a "manifesto" to make the punters feel better about it. 

flaneurs_lobster

Malthusian said:

$3 billion, pah. Dogecoin has a "market cap" of "$22 billion" despite being explicitly created as a joke.

But it also has a manifesto don'tchaknow:

We are developing a currency for the people, and we strive to do only good everyday. Through this work we have come to value:

Being useful, we value utility over technical brilliance.
Being personable, we value individuals and interactions over profit-driven economics.
Being welcoming, we value collaboration and trust over competition and exclusivity.
Being reliable, we value working solutions over speed of delivery.

As a reminder, this is a distributed spreadsheet entry that (like all crypto tokens) does absolutely nothing except record the ownership of the spreadsheet entry by a given key. Its ringleaders collaborate on absolutely nothing except maintaining the spreadsheet. It solves nothing, and delivers nothing, at a speed of infinity years per thing delivered. But so much real money and so many man-hours have been expended on buying and selling it that somebody felt they had to spend an afternoon cobbling together a "manifesto" to make the punters feel better about it. 

It's a wonderful thing, and quite ridiculous.

The only crypto I have ever "owned", all [consults app] £32.13's worth of it. 

MeteredOut

Malthusian said:

$3 billion, pah. Dogecoin has a "market cap" of "$22 billion" despite being explicitly created as a joke.

But it also has a manifesto don'tchaknow:

We are developing a currency for the people, and we strive to do only good everyday. Through this work we have come to value:

Being useful, we value utility over technical brilliance.
Being personable, we value individuals and interactions over profit-driven economics.
Being welcoming, we value collaboration and trust over competition and exclusivity.
Being reliable, we value working solutions over speed of delivery.

As a reminder, this is a distributed spreadsheet entry that (like all crypto tokens) does absolutely nothing except record the ownership of the spreadsheet entry by a given key. Its ringleaders collaborate on absolutely nothing except maintaining the spreadsheet. It solves nothing, and delivers nothing, at a speed of infinity years per thing delivered. But so much real money and so many man-hours have been expended on buying and selling it that somebody felt they had to spend an afternoon cobbling together a "manifesto" to make the punters feel better about it. 

If its not clear why someone is doing something, follow the money, and you'll find the answer.

(their manifesto is pretty much a variation of the agile manifesto)

Scottex99

Malthusian said:

$3 billion, pah. Dogecoin has a "market cap" of "$22 billion" despite being explicitly created as a joke.

But it also has a manifesto don'tchaknow:

We are developing a currency for the people, and we strive to do only good everyday. Through this work we have come to value:

Being useful, we value utility over technical brilliance.
Being personable, we value individuals and interactions over profit-driven economics.
Being welcoming, we value collaboration and trust over competition and exclusivity.
Being reliable, we value working solutions over speed of delivery.

As a reminder, this is a distributed spreadsheet entry that (like all crypto tokens) does absolutely nothing except record the ownership of the spreadsheet entry by a given key. Its ringleaders collaborate on absolutely nothing except maintaining the spreadsheet. It solves nothing, and delivers nothing, at a speed of infinity years per thing delivered. But so much real money and so many man-hours have been expended on buying and selling it that somebody felt they had to spend an afternoon cobbling together a "manifesto" to make the punters feel better about it. 

Raoul Pal’s latest podcast episode covered this quite recently in a way I found interesting.

Why do people still play the lottery in their millions? Because it gives them a tiny chance of that perceived luxurious material goal.

For the older people here with 6 or 7 figures in property or bonds or index funds it’s unlikely to make sense, you/they understand the system and most people agree that if you start putting money into these things early enough, after 3 or 4 decades the compound interest will be enough for you to enjoy your retirement. It works and it’s safe.

But for many of the newer generation this is out of reach, everything is too expensive, they can’t get on the property ladder, wages are stagnant etc. The world of the man out doing his post office job and the woman at home yet they have a house, a car, and holidays is long gone.

So people look for another way. Is it lottery, is it gambling…. Is it crypto?

Plus no asset manager from traditional finance is going to have a model that includes “community”.

Some of this is more cult than community but these kids grew up on the internet, they see the power of memes. Everyone saw what happened with GameStop.

And likely this is the reason behind Bored Apes, behind DOGE and SHIB and WIF etc. People want to be part of something different, Probably they are not gonna make it but who knows. Maybe you don’t need to go to business school and work your way up to
board level of some financial institution, maybe you just get early into a memecoin and it does 1000000x.

But this is also the reason for the pricing/decimal bias, almost all memes have some price of 0.000007 USD because the youngsters have that dream of, if this just goes to $1 then I’ll have a boat or a super car. For WIF it actually happened.

I dabble in a few memes here and there, I don’t really have the capacity and right now there are 20,000 new ones a day on Solana, but that reasoning makes a lot of sense to me