BITCOIN

DannyCarey

I see this thread is still full of snide remarks, glad I don't read this very often anymore. Full of bored trolls!

silvercue

Scottex99 said:

Merry Xmas, even to the No-coiners 😃

I hope 2024 is prosperous for us all 

2024 is gearing up to be very good for holders.  2023 has been excellent, but we are just getting started!!

Moose1960

DannyCarey said:

I see this thread is still full of snide remarks, glad I don't read this very often anymore. Full of bored trolls!

Indeed, and that's a shame but the nature of internet forums generally, coupled with the quite polarising nature of crypto, there's little middle ground here so, with a few exceptions, we have 300+ pages of "You're wrong!" and "No, you're wrong!"

One of those exceptions is @Scottex99, who is clearly a believer but accepts the counter points in a good natured fashion. Thank you Scott.

For my own part I invested (or "staked" or "gambled", depending upon your view) an amount that I could afford to lose in the 2018 dip and cashed out my original stake in the 2021 highs, leaving a profit that I watch today with interest and without intention to withdraw it any time soon. If it sinks to zero I've lost nothing and had some fun.

It's important to distinguish between Bitcoin (the subject of this thread) and crypto generally. Yes, the crypto space is full of useless "coins", scammers, and their naive prey but none of the latter takes away the fundamentals of Bitcoin.

Is it a ponzi? If it is then it's doing pretty well to still be around after fifteen years. That longevity doesn't compare with the Dutch Tulip Mania, the South Seas Bubble or any other large scale recent or historic scam. 

Where is it going? I'll confess that I really don't know, but there's the thing - nobody knows, including the naysayers on here. Still, they'll continue to insist that they're right.

zagfles

Moose1960 said:

DannyCarey said:

I see this thread is still full of snide remarks, glad I don't read this very often anymore. Full of bored trolls!

Indeed, and that's a shame but the nature of internet forums generally, coupled with the quite polarising nature of crypto, there's little middle ground here so, with a few exceptions, we have 300+ pages of "You're wrong!" and "No, you're wrong!"

One of those exceptions is @Scottex99, who is clearly a believer but accepts the counter points in a good natured fashion. Thank you Scott.

For my own part I invested (or "staked" or "gambled", depending upon your view) an amount that I could afford to lose in the 2018 dip and cashed out my original stake in the 2021 highs, leaving a profit that I watch today with interest and without intention to withdraw it any time soon. If it sinks to zero I've lost nothing and had some fun.

It's important to distinguish between Bitcoin (the subject of this thread) and crypto generally. Yes, the crypto space is full of useless "coins", scammers, and their naive prey but none of the latter takes away the fundamentals of Bitcoin.

Is it a ponzi? If it is then it's doing pretty well to still be around after fifteen years. That longevity doesn't compare with the Dutch Tulip Mania, the South Seas Bubble or any other large scale recent or historic scam. 

Where is it going? I'll confess that I really don't know, but there's the thing - nobody knows, including the naysayers on here. Still, they'll continue to insist that they're right.

I think the problem with Bitcoin discussions is summarised by this post on p.293

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80244091/#Comment_80244091

I don't think it's a scam, or a ponzi, and I haven't got a clue what direction it will go in, nobody has, even those who confidently predict it'll 5x in the next 18 months or it'll be worthless. 

But I do think it'll carry on being volatile, because there's too much speculation going on, there's too many people who see it as a "get rich quick scheme" rather than a future currency. It's not a ponzi or pyramid but it does share some features such as the obvious desperation of existing investors to get others to invest. I remember someone desperate to get me to invest in a pyramid scheme in the 1980's, this thread reminds me of them. I would never try to persuade anyone any investment of mine will skyrocket in value, why would I, if I thought it would happen I'd just hold and wait for it. My reward would be in my bank balance, not winning an argument on the internet.

When the speculators move out, I may move in

Frequentlyhere

Is it a ponzi? If it is then it's doing pretty well to still be around after fifteen years. That longevity doesn't compare with the Dutch Tulip Mania, the South Seas Bubble or any other large scale recent or historic scam. 

Except for the largest of all. Madoff's ran for 17+ years. I don't particularly think Bitcoin falls into that category exactly though myself. 

It's important to distinguish between Bitcoin (the subject of this thread) and crypto generally. 

You can distinguish in some ways, but in other ways there's plenty of similarities in my opinion. Risks of holding it on exchanges, risks of self-custody, risks of fraud/theft, high volatility, manipulation of the price, and of it simply being a unproductive asset (or an ineffective currency if the wind is blowing that way today). 

Not to say you can't make good money from it though if you fancy a bit of speculation. 

Edit: My post crossed with @zagfles . Very well said. The label in the previous post of someone being "a believer" is an interesting choice of word. 

MeteredOut

The difference now is that social media, and the "you must have a side hustle" culture, exist so the number of eyeballs for those promoting crypto is exponentially higher than those things that turned out to be ponzi.

Such schemes fall apart when there's no-one interested left to "invest", and i believe we're nowhere near that point yet with crypto.

Scottex99

Moose1960 said:

DannyCarey said:

I see this thread is still full of snide remarks, glad I don't read this very often anymore. Full of bored trolls!

Indeed, and that's a shame but the nature of internet forums generally, coupled with the quite polarising nature of crypto, there's little middle ground here so, with a few exceptions, we have 300+ pages of "You're wrong!" and "No, you're wrong!"

One of those exceptions is @Scottex99, who is clearly a believer but accepts the counter points in a good natured fashion. Thank you Scott.

For my own part I invested (or "staked" or "gambled", depending upon your view) an amount that I could afford to lose in the 2018 dip and cashed out my original stake in the 2021 highs, leaving a profit that I watch today with interest and without intention to withdraw it any time soon. If it sinks to zero I've lost nothing and had some fun.

It's important to distinguish between Bitcoin (the subject of this thread) and crypto generally. Yes, the crypto space is full of useless "coins", scammers, and their naive prey but none of the latter takes away the fundamentals of Bitcoin.

Is it a ponzi? If it is then it's doing pretty well to still be around after fifteen years. That longevity doesn't compare with the Dutch Tulip Mania, the South Seas Bubble or any other large scale recent or historic scam. 

Where is it going? I'll confess that I really don't know, but there's the thing - nobody knows, including the naysayers on here. Still, they'll continue to insist that they're right.

Cheers for the shout out. 🫡

Some good points in today’s posts too. 

It’s extremely volatile, it’s risky, it can be very high reward. Personally with my nature I’m always going to favour exposure to things like this and at least 1 valid point is I’d be so irritated if it did “go to the moon” and I wasn’t on the rocket too.

But I do research and I read newsletters and listen to podcasts of people saying there is something here, from people far smarter than myself.

If huge asset managers think that you should potentially have exposure to BTC, equal to say what they have in gold, then you need to take note. It’ll be ETH after that then an altcoin/L2 or something else after that.

Bitconned is a pretty good watch on Netflix, I watched it last night. I was around in the ICO boom and in fact I still have clients who raised ETH at that time and flipped it to £ in their bank through my firm. Pretty sick ending too, I won’t spoil it.

It’s a new world, there’s no real end goal I’ve realised, the whole market dumped to some supposed news earlier (I bought more SOL on the dip).

If BTC crashes to $10k I’ll buy more, if it pumps to $150k I’ll probably not sell as much as I should but even if I screenshotted a trade from BTC to $500k and that credit hitting my bank, I still won’t have convinced the naysayers, neither do I need to and they don’t want me to either. I really don’t like the zero sum chat though, that one gets me every time….

Linton

Scottex99 said:

Moose1960 said:7

DannyCarey said:

I see this thread is still full of snide remarks, glad I don't read this very often anymore. Full of bored trolls!

Indeed, and that's a shame but the nature of internet forums generally, coupled with the quite polarising nature of crypto, there's little middle ground here so, with a few exceptions, we have 300+ pages of "You're wrong!" and "No, you're wrong!"

One of those exceptions is @Scottex99, who is clearly a believer but accepts the counter points in a good natured fashion. Thank you Scott.

For my own part I invested (or "staked" or "gambled", depending upon your view) an amount that I could afford to lose in the 2018 dip and cashed out my original stake in the 2021 highs, leaving a profit that I watch today with interest and without intention to withdraw it any time soon. If it sinks to zero I've lost nothing and had some fun.

It's important to distinguish between Bitcoin (the subject of this thread) and crypto generally. Yes, the crypto space is full of useless "coins", scammers, and their naive prey but none of the latter takes away the fundamentals of Bitcoin.

Is it a ponzi? If it is then it's doing pretty well to still be around after fifteen years. That longevity doesn't compare with the Dutch Tulip Mania, the South Seas Bubble or any other large scale recent or historic scam. 

Where is it going? I'll confess that I really don't know, but there's the thing - nobody knows, including the naysayers on here. Still, they'll continue to insist that they're right.

Cheers for the shout out. 🫡

Some good points in today’s posts too. 

It’s extremely volatile, it’s risky, it can be very high reward. Personally with my nature I’m always going to favour exposure to things like this and at least 1 valid point is I’d be so irritated if it did “go to the moon” and I wasn’t on the rocket too.

But I do research and I read newsletters and listen to podcasts of people saying there is something here, from people far smarter than myself.

If huge asset managers think that you should potentially have exposure to BTC, equal to say what they have in gold, then you need to take note. It’ll be ETH after that then an altcoin/L2 or something else after that.

Bitconned is a pretty good watch on Netflix, I watched it last night. I was around in the ICO boom and in fact I still have clients who raised ETH at that time and flipped it to £ in their bank through my firm. Pretty sick ending too, I won’t spoil it.

It’s a new world, there’s no real end goal I’ve realised, the whole market dumped to some supposed news earlier (I bought more SOL on the dip).

If BTC crashes to $10k I’ll buy more, if it pumps to $150k I’ll probably not sell as much as I should but even if I screenshotted a trade from BTC to $500k and that credit hitting my bank, I still won’t have convinced the naysayers, neither do I need to and they don’t want me to either. I really don’t like the zero sum chat though, that one gets me every time….

Huge asset managers get their money from management fees. They are more than happy to sell you an investment they would not touch themselves.

thegentleway

Scottex99 said:

Moose1960 said:

DannyCarey said:

I see this thread is still full of snide remarks, glad I don't read this very often anymore. Full of bored trolls!

Indeed, and that's a shame but the nature of internet forums generally, coupled with the quite polarising nature of crypto, there's little middle ground here so, with a few exceptions, we have 300+ pages of "You're wrong!" and "No, you're wrong!"

One of those exceptions is @Scottex99, who is clearly a believer but accepts the counter points in a good natured fashion. Thank you Scott.

For my own part I invested (or "staked" or "gambled", depending upon your view) an amount that I could afford to lose in the 2018 dip and cashed out my original stake in the 2021 highs, leaving a profit that I watch today with interest and without intention to withdraw it any time soon. If it sinks to zero I've lost nothing and had some fun.

It's important to distinguish between Bitcoin (the subject of this thread) and crypto generally. Yes, the crypto space is full of useless "coins", scammers, and their naive prey but none of the latter takes away the fundamentals of Bitcoin.

Is it a ponzi? If it is then it's doing pretty well to still be around after fifteen years. That longevity doesn't compare with the Dutch Tulip Mania, the South Seas Bubble or any other large scale recent or historic scam. 

Where is it going? I'll confess that I really don't know, but there's the thing - nobody knows, including the naysayers on here. Still, they'll continue to insist that they're right.

If BTC crashes to $10k I’ll buy more, if it pumps to $150k I’ll probably not sell as much as I should but even if I screenshotted a trade from BTC to $500k and that credit hitting my bank, I still won’t have convinced the naysayers, neither do I need to and they don’t want me to either. I really don’t like the zero sum chat though, that one gets me every time….

Interested why does the zero sum chat upset you? Derivatives and futures are zero sum games. It doesn't delegitimise Bitcoin, just highlights it's a gamble which I think you agree with?

Also amongst the mud flinging, some of the sensible naysayers have outlined what would convince them (both for currency and store of value) but yes it isn't price of course. That would be silly. 

Scottex99

Yeah you’re right it doesn’t delegitimise it but that’s generally the intention the way that it’s framed. That I need to convince someone to take it off me. And I know why stocks aren’t zero sum but also in highly liquid markets you trade the order book, you have no idea what algo or MM or individual is behind the other side, all you know is that the price is there to be taken (or made with limit order).
I think it’s the idea that it’s conniving in some way for me to dump my BTC on someone at $70k but it’s all noble and moral to sell Apple or Google at their ATH.

I did hear a great take earlier that the ETF(s) next week are sell the news, not because BTC is already high at $42k or that $15-20bn of funds won’t flow into them… but that it already has in the form of COIN or MSTR share prices where TradFi has already front run the announcements. This plus halvening makes it very interesting Q1/Q2