BITCOIN

Malthusian

Security protocols are only as strong as their weakest link. 2 factor authentication offers 0 protection if the wrong person has access to the smartphone.

I am shocked, shocked that bros who sell monkey clip art to other bros on the basis that they'll rocket in value might have a weak link somewhere in their office.

Scottex99

BAYC had 2FA on their Insta, that's not really an issue that the page got hacked.

The issue is once the hackers had access, they started chatting about a fake airdrop (of ApeCoin I assume). To claim you need to connect your Metamask/web3 wallet to their site. Once connected and you approve the transaction (which most people dont read the actual txn code for and what you are approving). They then have full access and swipe all the coins and NFTs.

So there were probably at least 3 stages were BAYC holders could have been like hmmm does this seem legit? Why is their an airdrop when the coin is already in circulation and listed on most major exchanges?

People make mistakes but they got tripped up by their own greed imo

Zola.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-61248809

Would be great if we can keep this thread on topic, (Bitcoin!)

Reaper

Zola. said:

Reaper said:

I'm no crypto fan but I wouldn't entirely rule out investing if the market falls far enough. Not yet though because I'm expecting there is going to be another fall when El Salvador inevitably abandons Bitcoin and in doing so kills the idea off for other countries waiting to see the outcome of the experiment. I gather the IMF has indicated it won't give them any loans until they do (link).

I am curious how they pay their tax out there. Does the government tell you how much you owe in both bitcoin and fiat? If so I would delay paying until the last moment then pay with whichever was the least, which could save you a massive amount of money (and cost the government lots)!

Why is it inevitable they will abandon? It's not.
...
If El Salvador continue as they are,  and their bitcoin bond deal is very profitable, you can be sure other nations will copy this playbook. Then things will get really interesting...

Let's revisit and check on how those important bitcoin bonds are doing. Remember he is looking for $1 billion to replace conventional bonds and to fund the building of Bitcoin city.

The total number of investors who have bought them is... drumroll... zero.

As a result El Salvador is heading for a default with the yields on their conventional bonds now only beaten by Ukraine.

Somehow I don't think this is going to inspire any other countries to follow suit.

Link to Bloomberg story

lozzy1965

Zola. said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-61248809

Would be great if we can keep this thread on topic, (Bitcoin!)

El Salvador and Central African Republic, just the kind of countries Bitcoin needs for acceptance!  Me thinks the leaders of those countries are just rolling the dice and playing - again - with the prosperity or otherwise of their citizens.  If they win, they are visionaries, if they lose, well, they were only poor, war ridden, crime ridden countries anyway.

Malthusian

Why lend money to El Salvador backed by Bitcoins when you can just buy Bitcoins?

If the £1 billion worth of Bitcoins go to the moon then El Salvador pockets the difference between the return on Bitcoins minus the debt coupon. If they dump then El Salvador defaults on the debt and (best case scenario) hands back the Bitcoins. You get the downside and El Salvador gets the upside.

(The scenario where Bitcoins dump but El Salvador doesn't default can be discounted given how reliant ElS is on Bitcoin staying up to pay their soldiers and civil servants.)

If you were happy to take a punt on the prospect that El Salvador will, despite market expectations, repay its bonds in full, you might as well buy their conventional bonds and pocket the 24%pa yield, rather than buy "secured" bonds with a lower yield.

Turns out it's more difficult to sell silly cargo cult tokens to international bond traders than to bros. Who knew.

User232002

Reaper said:

Let's revisit and check on how those important bitcoin bonds are doing. Remember he is looking for $1 billion to replace conventional bonds and to fund the building of Bitcoin city.

I was never that interested in their bonds, but...

Reaper said:

The total number of investors who have bought them is... drumroll... zero.

Erm, yes - because they never went on sale. In other news, nobody has also bought time machines yet. What does this tell us?

Reaper said:

As a result El Salvador is heading for a default with the yields on their conventional bonds now only beaten by Ukraine.

I think you need a course in bond math to understand how bond prices work. There is another, far more obvious way, which has caused their yields to blow out.

Also, the Bitcoin bond was never expressly slated to be used to repay their previous debts - so not sure why you are using 'as a result' here.

lozzy1965 said:

El Salvador and Central African Republic, just the kind of countries Bitcoin needs for acceptance!  

In a wet F1 race, when the track starts drying the first car to come in for slick tyres is a car towards the back of the pack. What does this tell us? 

Neither of these countries are poster boys for success, but I have previously said in this thread that you should look for LatAm / African & SEA countries to adopt BTC first. Faith in fiat will begin to corrode with those that have not been a party to its success. 

And lastly, this oldie but goodie;

Nobody uses it ...
Only criminals use it ...
Only geeks/libertarians use it ...
Only small companies use it ...
Only small countries use it

Malthusian said:

Why lend money to El Salvador backed by Bitcoins when you can just buy Bitcoins?

Ah, tell me you know nothing about investments without telling me you know nothing about investments....

Malthusian said:

If the £1 billion worth of Bitcoins go to the moon then El Salvador pockets the difference between the return on Bitcoins minus the debt coupon. If they dump then El Salvador defaults on the debt and (best case scenario) hands back the Bitcoins. You get the downside and El Salvador gets the upside.

I'm not completely au fait with the bonds but I believe the original stipulation was that El Salvador would share half of any profit on the Bitcoin with the investors. Which would seem to render your argument here void and, of course, wouldn't be the first time you've made assumptions that aren't factually correct.

Malthusian said:

(The scenario where Bitcoins dump but El Salvador doesn't default can be discounted given how reliant ElS is on Bitcoin staying up to pay their soldiers and civil servants.)

El Salvador has 1800 or so BTC acquired for about $80M I believe (above what they would trade for right now). Do you really think a country with a GDP of $25B is dependent on an investment or lump sum of $80M to pay its soldiers and civil servants?

Or is this again a case of you failing to do basic math?

Malthusian said:

If you were happy to take a punt on the prospect that El Salvador will, despite market expectations, repay its bonds in full, you might as well buy their conventional bonds and pocket the 24%pa yield, rather than buy "secured" bonds with a lower yield.

El Salvador aren't paying 24% interest on their debts. Its also not 24% per annum indefinitely. You do know these two things right? Or is this again you pretending to know how the bond market works without actually having a clue.

Their 'secured' bonds (by which, I assume you mean the BTC bond) have an interest rate equal to 6% plus a quarter of whatever Bitcoin appreciates by in the next 5 years. If you're setting the line on that combination being equal to 24%, I would take the over every single time.

Malthusian said:

Turns out it's more difficult to sell silly cargo cult tokens to international bond traders than to bros. Who knew.

The bond market is very technical and math based; more so than regular markets. Its also intimately knowledgeable with the causes and consequences of QE and YCC. Some of the most bullish people I know on BTC work or worked in bond markets.

IvanOpinion

darren232002 said:

Reaper said:
The total number of investors who have bought them is... drumroll... zero. 

Erm, yes - because they never went on sale. In other news, nobody has also bought time machines yet. What does this tell us?

Well time machines are imaginary, so not only are the benefits imaginary but, where they have been imagined, they have actually been detrimental to the wider society - ah, I get your point!

tebbins

darren232002 said:

Reaper said:

Let's revisit and check on how those important bitcoin bonds are doing. Remember he is looking for $1 billion to replace conventional bonds and to fund the building of Bitcoin city.

I was never that interested in their bonds, but...

Reaper said:

The total number of investors who have bought them is... drumroll... zero.

Erm, yes - because they never went on sale. In other news, nobody has also bought time machines yet. What does this tell us?

Reaper said:

As a result El Salvador is heading for a default with the yields on their conventional bonds now only beaten by Ukraine.

I think you need a course in bond math to understand how bond prices work. There is another, far more obvious way, which has caused their yields to blow out.

Also, the Bitcoin bond was never expressly slated to be used to repay their previous debts - so not sure why you are using 'as a result' here.

lozzy1965 said:

El Salvador and Central African Republic, just the kind of countries Bitcoin needs for acceptance!  

In a wet F1 race, when the track starts drying the first car to come in for slick tyres is a car towards the back of the pack. What does this tell us? 

Neither of these countries are poster boys for success, but I have previously said in this thread that you should look for LatAm / African & SEA countries to adopt BTC first. Faith in fiat will begin to corrode with those that have not been a party to its success. 

And lastly, this oldie but goodie;

Nobody uses it ...
Only criminals use it ...
Only geeks/libertarians use it ...
Only small companies use it ...
Only small countries use it

Malthusian said:

Why lend money to El Salvador backed by Bitcoins when you can just buy Bitcoins?

Ah, tell me you know nothing about investments without telling me you know nothing about investments....

Malthusian said:

If the £1 billion worth of Bitcoins go to the moon then El Salvador pockets the difference between the return on Bitcoins minus the debt coupon. If they dump then El Salvador defaults on the debt and (best case scenario) hands back the Bitcoins. You get the downside and El Salvador gets the upside.

I'm not completely au fait with the bonds but I believe the original stipulation was that El Salvador would share half of any profit on the Bitcoin with the investors. Which would seem to render your argument here void and, of course, wouldn't be the first time you've made assumptions that aren't factually correct.

Malthusian said:

(The scenario where Bitcoins dump but El Salvador doesn't default can be discounted given how reliant ElS is on Bitcoin staying up to pay their soldiers and civil servants.)

El Salvador has 1800 or so BTC acquired for about $80M I believe (above what they would trade for right now). Do you really think a country with a GDP of $25B is dependent on an investment or lump sum of $80M to pay its soldiers and civil servants?

Or is this again a case of you failing to do basic math?

Malthusian said:

If you were happy to take a punt on the prospect that El Salvador will, despite market expectations, repay its bonds in full, you might as well buy their conventional bonds and pocket the 24%pa yield, rather than buy "secured" bonds with a lower yield.

El Salvador aren't paying 24% interest on their debts. Its also not 24% per annum indefinitely. You do know these two things right? Or is this again you pretending to know how the bond market works without actually having a clue.

Their 'secured' bonds (by which, I assume you mean the BTC bond) have an interest rate equal to 6% plus a quarter of whatever Bitcoin appreciates by in the next 5 years. If you're setting the line on that combination being equal to 24%, I would take the over every single time.

Malthusian said:

Turns out it's more difficult to sell silly cargo cult tokens to international bond traders than to bros. Who knew.

The bond market is very technical and math based; more so than regular markets. Its also intimately knowledgeable with the causes and consequences of QE and YCC. Some of the most bullish people I know on BTC work or worked in bond markets.

Will you ever give up?

Thrugelmir

tebbins said:

darren232002 said:

Reaper said:

Let's revisit and check on how those important bitcoin bonds are doing. Remember he is looking for $1 billion to replace conventional bonds and to fund the building of Bitcoin city.

I was never that interested in their bonds, but...

Reaper said:

The total number of investors who have bought them is... drumroll... zero.

Erm, yes - because they never went on sale. In other news, nobody has also bought time machines yet. What does this tell us?

Reaper said:

As a result El Salvador is heading for a default with the yields on their conventional bonds now only beaten by Ukraine.

I think you need a course in bond math to understand how bond prices work. There is another, far more obvious way, which has caused their yields to blow out.

Also, the Bitcoin bond was never expressly slated to be used to repay their previous debts - so not sure why you are using 'as a result' here.

lozzy1965 said:

El Salvador and Central African Republic, just the kind of countries Bitcoin needs for acceptance!  

In a wet F1 race, when the track starts drying the first car to come in for slick tyres is a car towards the back of the pack. What does this tell us? 

Neither of these countries are poster boys for success, but I have previously said in this thread that you should look for LatAm / African & SEA countries to adopt BTC first. Faith in fiat will begin to corrode with those that have not been a party to its success. 

And lastly, this oldie but goodie;

Nobody uses it ...
Only criminals use it ...
Only geeks/libertarians use it ...
Only small companies use it ...
Only small countries use it

Malthusian said:

Why lend money to El Salvador backed by Bitcoins when you can just buy Bitcoins?

Ah, tell me you know nothing about investments without telling me you know nothing about investments....

Malthusian said:

If the £1 billion worth of Bitcoins go to the moon then El Salvador pockets the difference between the return on Bitcoins minus the debt coupon. If they dump then El Salvador defaults on the debt and (best case scenario) hands back the Bitcoins. You get the downside and El Salvador gets the upside.

I'm not completely au fait with the bonds but I believe the original stipulation was that El Salvador would share half of any profit on the Bitcoin with the investors. Which would seem to render your argument here void and, of course, wouldn't be the first time you've made assumptions that aren't factually correct.

Malthusian said:

(The scenario where Bitcoins dump but El Salvador doesn't default can be discounted given how reliant ElS is on Bitcoin staying up to pay their soldiers and civil servants.)

El Salvador has 1800 or so BTC acquired for about $80M I believe (above what they would trade for right now). Do you really think a country with a GDP of $25B is dependent on an investment or lump sum of $80M to pay its soldiers and civil servants?

Or is this again a case of you failing to do basic math?

Malthusian said:

If you were happy to take a punt on the prospect that El Salvador will, despite market expectations, repay its bonds in full, you might as well buy their conventional bonds and pocket the 24%pa yield, rather than buy "secured" bonds with a lower yield.

El Salvador aren't paying 24% interest on their debts. Its also not 24% per annum indefinitely. You do know these two things right? Or is this again you pretending to know how the bond market works without actually having a clue.

Their 'secured' bonds (by which, I assume you mean the BTC bond) have an interest rate equal to 6% plus a quarter of whatever Bitcoin appreciates by in the next 5 years. If you're setting the line on that combination being equal to 24%, I would take the over every single time.

Malthusian said:

Turns out it's more difficult to sell silly cargo cult tokens to international bond traders than to bros. Who knew.

The bond market is very technical and math based; more so than regular markets. Its also intimately knowledgeable with the causes and consequences of QE and YCC. Some of the most bullish people I know on BTC work or worked in bond markets.

Will you ever give up?

Only when the fat lady sings...........