BITCOIN

Malthusian

Zola. said:

Despite that, Bitcoin has outperformed every single investing opportunity since its inception

This is incorrect. It has underperformed every single investing opportunity that delivered a return above zero. Punters' money in == punters' money out. The performance of an investment is the performance across all investors, not performance for some random cherry-picked subgroup that cashed out at a profit.

This is not a matter of "entrenched viewpoints", just maths.

Virtually no-one mined a Bitcoin at inception and still holds it today or cashed out in the last 12 months. The biggest hodler of coins mined at inception, Satoshi Nakamoto, lost all of them. The rest cashed out years ago.

Zola.

Investing isn't a group project where we all win, there are always winners and losers between buyers and sellers. Stocks are no different.  If you hold long enough onto the right asset, you typically win.

Let's go back as far as google BTC pricing will let me.... today that's November 20th, 2015.  The fact of the matter is if I spent £1000 back then it would have bought me 5 Bitcoin. Today that value is £220,365. I sure wish I was a "crypto bro" back then, and if people here were honest with themselves, they'll have regretted missing that opportunity too. 

HCIMbtw

When I see news like 'Amazon to stop accepting visa' because of the associated fees associated with transaction (about 2.4% of turnover for a small company). 

All I can think is how crypto and DeFi can easily fill a service like this with significantly lower fees

adindas

Adyinvestment said:

As someone who is an IFA and also clearly against Bitcoin at this time, I am curious as to what it would take (if anything) for you to advise a client to consider putting money in Bitcoin?

This just my general view regarding using an IFA services, I am not refering to a particular  IFA.

To me I do not need to pay a financial advisor just to tell me to invest in treasury Bond earning about 1.5 % a year.

In term of stock, I also do not need a financial advisor telling me to invest in index fund S&P 500, FTSE 100, Vanguard Life Strategy, Vanguard Target Retirement Fund, etc either.

If I use an IFA I am expecting my money to beat the market to grow at least 30%+ a year. I do not need them just to tell me to invest in bonds, in index funds, multi assests well diversified funds. It is a very simple job. It is only the laziest cannot perform the job “invest and forget”. I will avoid straight away those who advise me to invest in bonds, treasury bonds, government bonds. You get a better return and more flexible of investing your money by throwing your money into Regular Saving Accounts. There are a lot of people on this MSE sharing information about this that could help you making the right decision.

You often see reasonable number of people on this MSE keep quoting chinese proverbs, “The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second-best time is now.” Well, in my opinion they apply it out of the context. While this jargon might be more suitable for Index fund such as S&P 500, very well diversified multi asset funds; it is inappropriate to high volatile assets such as BTC, ETH other cryptos as well as high growth stocks. Common sense rule, you should not be catching the knife, where everyone could see the knife is falling, it will hurt you. Why not wait until it has settled and use it for your advantage. You might not get the bottom 100% of the time. But you do not need the “very bottom” but around the bottom is enough. Also you just need to get 50%+ right to make money.

adindas

HCIMbtw said:

When I see news like 'Amazon to stop accepting visa' because of the associated fees associated with transaction (about 2.4% of turnover for a small company). 

All I can think is how crypto and DeFi can easily fill a service like this with significantly lower fees

In addition, you might want to add PayPal, Microsoft, Starbucks, Amazon. You might also see the future value of block chain in the things like distributed economy, increase market efficiency, smart contracts, invaluable contracts, land deeds, etc almost free from politics and government intervention. There are tons of info like this but for the flat earthers they will still think the earth is flat.

Most importantly some people are refering to what Warren Buffet and Charlie Munger are saying regarding Bitcoin. I highly respect WB and CM views in fundamental of investing. But WB and CM make their money before the fourth industrial revolution featured with high growth stocks in technology. But if you compare their fund performance since then, every investor including you and I will beat WB &CM, just by doing almost nothing, just throw you money into S&P 500 and forget it. I posted the graph as evidence in this thread earlier.

Those billionaires who understand from both side the Investing and Technological sides such as Jack Dorsey, Elon Musk, Matthew Roszak, Michael Saylor, Cathie Wood, Tim Cook, Jeff Bezos, Brian Armstrong, Matthew Roszak, Tim Draper, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg will have an entirely different opinion with WB & CM. Not to mention other multi billionaires hudgefund managers such as Ray Dalio, Kevin O'leary, Druckenmiller, etc

A good example is Amazon. The company hardly making any profit in the early day as they was investing for growth, reinvesting revenue they have made to expand the business. Acquire other companies to accelerate the expansion and grow like an octopus. It only made its first profit in the fourth quarter of 2001: $0.01 (i.e., 1¢ per share), on revenues of more than $1 billion.

Facebook did similar thing Acquire other companies to accelerate the expansion, only start making profit in 2004.

Many people could not see the future value of something. Those who could see the future, have invested on both companies since in the early day where there were not a lot of people pay attention, understand the future value of something, what they will create, see where they are now!!!

Similar to BTC, cryptos but in this particular case unless they are blind, or do not read the news this one eveyone could see in relatively shorter period where they were five years ago and where they are now.

In this thread I also posted the Performance of MARA (Marathon Patent Group, Inc.). One of the largest Bitcoin Mining

This company is not mining minerals, precious metals but they are mining Bitcoin. They are not extracting Oils, harvest crops, vegetables, food which everyone understand to have value as you could eat it.

For some people in this thread, they are mining sh1te, worthless asset with only the fools will buy, hoping to sell it at a higher price to another fool.

But guess what this sh1te miners multiples your money 35X+ (yes thirty five times, not 3.5X) in less than a year. What is the P/E ratio of this company? well N/A or infinite.

The next big things to watch might be “METAVERSE”. If you think you have missed blockchain you might not want to miss the next big things.

tebbins

Zola. said:

Investing isn't a group project where we all win, there are always winners and losers between buyers and sellers. Stocks are no different.  If you hold long enough onto the right asset, you typically win.

Let's go back as far as google BTC pricing will let me.... today that's November 20th, 2015.  The fact of the matter is if I spent £1000 back then it would have bought me 5 Bitcoin. Today that value is £220,365. I sure wish I was a "crypto bro" back then, and if people here were honest with themselves, they'll have regretted missing that opportunity too. 

You're literally just saying "hindsight and market timing would have been great".
Two words: survivor bias

Were you even owning any coins in 2015?

Malthusian

adindas said:

This just my general view regarding using an IFA services, I am not refering to a particular  IFA.

To me I do not need to pay a financial advisor just to tell me to invest in treasury Bond earning about 1.5 % a year.

In term of stock, I also do not need a financial advisor telling me to invest in index fund S&P 500, FTSE 100, Vanguard Life Strategy, Vanguard Target Retirement Fund, etc either.

If I use an IFA I am expecting my money to beat the index fund to grow at least 30%+ a year.

In the field of realistic expectations, that's not far off going into a solicitor's offices for some help with estate planning, and saying that I expect them to make me live forever. 

The point of paying a financial adviser is to receive financial advice, not to make free money (and certainly not to get rich quick, which is what returns of 30%pa are) by outperforming the index by more than their fees.

adindas

Malthusian said:

adindas said:

This just my general view regarding using an IFA services, I am not refering to a particular  IFA.

To me I do not need to pay a financial advisor just to tell me to invest in treasury Bond earning about 1.5 % a year.

In term of stock, I also do not need a financial advisor telling me to invest in index fund S&P 500, FTSE 100, Vanguard Life Strategy, Vanguard Target Retirement Fund, etc either.

If I use an IFA I am expecting my money to beat the index fund to grow at least 30%+ a year.

In the field of realistic expectations, that's not far off going into a solicitor's offices for some help with estate planning, and saying that I expect them to make me live forever. 

The point of paying a financial adviser is to receive financial advice, not to make free money (and certainly not to get rich quick, which is what returns of 30%pa are) by outperforming the index by more than their fees.

What probably some people are not aware of because they keep living in their own compound is that there are REASONABLE number of active retail investors constantly get 30%+ year after year. So expecting to get the return of 30%+ is not like expecting people to make you living forever. Thanks to major cryptos, good high growth stock, near zero fee platform for trading and investing such as eToro, Trading 212, Robinhood, Freetrade, WeBull, Stake, MooMoo, etc. Thanks to real-time analytical tools, stock market news which some are now available free of charge.

You see the same reaction here when people start talking about BTC in this thread. Just because BTC provide a return of  (+7,734.91%) within five years, do not thave a traditional value like staples, food (because you could not eat it) it does not have a P/E ratio like a value stock then it must be a scam.

adindas

Zola. said:

Investing isn't a group project where we all win, there are always winners and losers between buyers and sellers. Stocks are no different.  If you hold long enough onto the right asset, you typically win.

Let's go back as far as google BTC pricing will let me.... today that's November 20th, 2015.  The fact of the matter is if I spent £1000 back then it would have bought me 5 Bitcoin. Today that value is £220,365. I sure wish I was a "crypto bro" back then, and if people here were honest with themselves, they'll have regretted missing that opportunity too. 

I know the feeling if you think you have missed the gravy train, you have missed the boat lol

bugbyte_2

Most importantly some people are refering to what Warren Buffet and Charlie Munger are saying regarding Bitcoin. ..................................

A good example is Amazon. The company hardly making any profit in the early day as they was investing for growth, reinvesting revenue they have made to expand the business. Acquire other companies to accelerate the expansion and grow like an octopus. It only made its first profit in the fourth quarter of 2001: $0.01 (i.e., 1¢ per share), on revenues of more than $1 billion.

Facebook did similar thing Acquire other companies to accelerate the expansion, only start making profit in 2004.

Many people could not see the future value of something. Those who could see the future, have invested on both companies since in the early day where there were not a lot of people pay attention, understand the future value of something, what they will create, see where they are now!!!

WHO?

WHO apart from your good self keeps posting about WB and CM? is there a MoneySavingExpert Buffett appreciation thread I have completely missed? Has Munger done something unspeakably bad to your cat for you to keep bringing his name up? Every other post you mention them, plus the hordes of non existent posters who apparently keep bringing them up.

Secondly, whats your point? Lets name a couple of companies that have been successful whilst completely ignoring the literally thousands of other companies that also didn't make a profit in the early days and guess what? they never made a profit and then popped out of existence. What can I say? I personally lent Mark Zuckerberg his seed money? about as probable as saying I put my life savings on Bitcoin in 2015 - wasn't I clever?