November 2020 international travel rules

Leodogger

ToxicWomble said:

Technically it might be allowed, but it’s not urgent and can wait 3 weeks. Nothing much else is happening across Europe

Whilst people continue to loophole and circumnavigate the law and justify why they should not follow rules and advice -  this mess is going to drag on for many months longer than it needs to.

Doing what is asked of you is NOT going to hurt you or your family, in fact it may protect them from harm.

Personally I don’t agree with this lockdown, but I’m doing it and not trying to buck the system at every turn.
Yes high profile people have broken  the rules - but take the moral high ground and don’t sink to their level.

I haven’t had a holiday this year and won’t be booking abroad next year - it won’t kill me or hurt me - there’s always (hopefully) the year after. The world won’t end if you miss your oh so precious holiday but life might get back to normal quicker if you just do what’s right.

I see a lot of criticism of the government on here - I suggest the cause of a significant proportion of this mess is a lot closer to your home than you think.

I have ZERO sympathy for posters that don’t do what they know is right and believe their freedoms and life is more important than anyone else’s and even less for those who actively encourage this behaviour. 

Karma is a .... and it will come and get you when you least expect.

"Doing what is asked of you is NOT going to hurt you or your family".   I don't agree, for those of us who have limited incomes and had booked holidays and flights like us before this pandemic hit and the flights were constantly pushed back until pushed inside the lockdown by accident or design by the airlines, have lost a lot of money because we were made NOT to turn up by law which of course if it is flights like us, we may not get our money back.  Many people who couldn't afford to lose money have and are bitter about it !   It is no consolation when your airline is turning around like Ryanair and saying "tough", the flight was still running and you didn't notify us within 7 days, when we were only given 6 days notice by Boris, so that we could swap flights free of charge.     The upshot is that I have already written to my MP because we were not given enough notice and people like Michael O'Leary are trying to cash in on that because he uses any loophole he can find to try to rob people.  As for those who say it is not the airlines fault, some airlines have taken the honourable route and refunded money, albeit people will have to wait for it but other unscruplulous people revel in any circumstance to make money out of a pandemic !

cubegame

epm-84 said:

CKhalvashi said:

epm-84 said:

Nutty75 said:

I still haven’t found the answer if our reason for travel is valid during this lockdown - we have a property in Tenerife that we are hoping to rent out - but before we can rent it - we have a few plumbing issues to sort - and as my husband is a plumber he is carrying out these works himself.   The second reason is that we have been advised to have a Spanish Will drawn up so we have an appointment with our spanish Lawyer to go and sign the Will . Our daughters were due to fly out with us - but as they would be going for a holiday I have cancelled their flights as they obviously had no reason to travel - but I wish I could find out if our reasons are valid.  I did contact my travel insurance company and they thought that because my husband would be completing work on the apartment this would be acceptable - but they are coming back to me to confirm this and the Signing of the Will - I just wanted to check we would have insurance if we traveled - anyone have any idea? 

I'd say no.

Section 12 in the guidance refers to it not being permitted to stay overnight in your second home, as you don't currently rent it out it and don't live there it must be your second home.

Section 13 provides guidance for moving home and it's where people are claiming there's a loophole and you can pretend you're looking at buying a home abroad.  However, the section says "Follow the national guidance on moving home safely" and that links to a page where it specifically talks about moving to a new home in England, so there's nothing to suggest that extends to moving to a home abroad.

It's not your travel insurers responsibility to say whether a trip is legal, it's their responsibility to advise whether the cover you have is suitable for the trip you want to make.  

So you're saying it's illegal for someone to move abroad?

Not buying that.

Not everyone will be moving to a new home in England. Not legal advice, but IMO OP is therefore entitled to remain in that property overnight, as it's visiting a residential property to undertake any activities required for the rental or sale of that property.

The legislation makes no reference to the property being in England, and therefore it must be assumed as intended to be anywhere within the world. If the Government haven't written the legislation adequately, the onus is on them. That said, the government hasn't adequately done anything since being elected, so getting a piece of legislation correct isn't exactly within their capabilities.

Whether it's legal or not, realistically you can't buy a house in 95% of Europe as either local restrictions would get in the way or you'd have to self-isolate for 2 weeks each time you return, which would prevent you from letting anyone view your home in England. If you argue you'd be buying a second home then you might have to prove that's covered, given travelling to a second home isn't covered.

I think for most people if they claimed they were going to the Canaries to buy a house, if either the police or border control asked a few basic questions about their plans, they'd quickly find out it's a lie as buying a house needs a lot of planning, not just phoning up some random estate agent in Spain and making an appointment you plan to cancel as soon as you arrive.

The big issue for the poster in question is it does specifically say staying in your second home is not permitted and that doesn't have an exception for those repairing a home ahead of sale.  In the circumstances it would probably be easier to just get a local workman to do the necessary work or to postpone it for a few weeks.

The reality is that if you want to go overseas it's extremely unlikely that you will questioned on your reason for doing so.

In the extremely unlikely event of some plod stopping you on the way to or at an airport I think you would be making a huge assumption that they would spend any time considering and analysing your reason for travel which would involve an in-depth knowledge of purchasing a property abroad.

epm-84

CKhalvashi said:

epm-84 said:

CKhalvashi said:

epm-84 said:

Nutty75 said:

I still haven’t found the answer if our reason for travel is valid during this lockdown - we have a property in Tenerife that we are hoping to rent out - but before we can rent it - we have a few plumbing issues to sort - and as my husband is a plumber he is carrying out these works himself.   The second reason is that we have been advised to have a Spanish Will drawn up so we have an appointment with our spanish Lawyer to go and sign the Will . Our daughters were due to fly out with us - but as they would be going for a holiday I have cancelled their flights as they obviously had no reason to travel - but I wish I could find out if our reasons are valid.  I did contact my travel insurance company and they thought that because my husband would be completing work on the apartment this would be acceptable - but they are coming back to me to confirm this and the Signing of the Will - I just wanted to check we would have insurance if we traveled - anyone have any idea? 

I'd say no.

Section 12 in the guidance refers to it not being permitted to stay overnight in your second home, as you don't currently rent it out it and don't live there it must be your second home.

Section 13 provides guidance for moving home and it's where people are claiming there's a loophole and you can pretend you're looking at buying a home abroad.  However, the section says "Follow the national guidance on moving home safely" and that links to a page where it specifically talks about moving to a new home in England, so there's nothing to suggest that extends to moving to a home abroad.

It's not your travel insurers responsibility to say whether a trip is legal, it's their responsibility to advise whether the cover you have is suitable for the trip you want to make.  

So you're saying it's illegal for someone to move abroad?

Not buying that.

Not everyone will be moving to a new home in England. Not legal advice, but IMO OP is therefore entitled to remain in that property overnight, as it's visiting a residential property to undertake any activities required for the rental or sale of that property.

The legislation makes no reference to the property being in England, and therefore it must be assumed as intended to be anywhere within the world. If the Government haven't written the legislation adequately, the onus is on them. That said, the government hasn't adequately done anything since being elected, so getting a piece of legislation correct isn't exactly within their capabilities.

Whether it's legal or not, realistically you can't buy a house in 95% of Europe as either local restrictions would get in the way or you'd have to self-isolate for 2 weeks each time you return, which would prevent you from letting anyone view your home in England. If you argue you'd be buying a second home then you might have to prove that's covered, given travelling to a second home isn't covered.

I think for most people if they claimed they were going to the Canaries to buy a house, if either the police or border control asked a few basic questions about their plans, they'd quickly find out it's a lie as buying a house needs a lot of planning, not just phoning up some random estate agent in Spain and making an appointment you plan to cancel as soon as you arrive.

The big issue for the poster in question is it does specifically say staying in your second home is not permitted and that doesn't have an exception for those repairing a home ahead of sale.  In the circumstances it would probably be easier to just get a local workman to do the necessary work or to postpone it for a few weeks.

It doesn't mention anything about second homes in that section.

The section states that there is a specific exemption to undertake any activities required for the rental or sale of that property. That is what OP is doing, and therefore is bound by a clear exemption, whether it's a first, second, third or tenth home.

Whether someone needs to isolate on return is again completely irrelevant to whether OP can travel for work to be done on a property the the letting of that property. There is currently no isolation requirement from the Canaries, and last time I checked, Tenerife was one of the Canary Islands.

Please stop making the law up as you go along, it doesn't help OP.

I didn't say the Canaries was in the 95% of Europe where buying or selling a home would not be possible, did I?  That point is relevant though because the number of people planning to buy or sell property in Europe, who can actually do it, is almost zero and it'll mean the government haven't prepared proper guidance for doing it.

When you're trying to claim it'd be OK to go to Spain and claim you're doing it to attend a place of worship (as per your earlier post), given that's only permitted for private prayer or where the place of worship runs an essential community service e.g. a food bank, it's a bit rich to say other people are making it up as they go along.

However, let's ignore whether the property is outside the UK.  The criteria which needs to be met is it's to fulfill a legal requirement or an activity related to a property sale (or renting it out.)  Obviously no problem with visiting a solicitor but why is the plumbing work being done?  If there isn't running water in the building then that definitely meets the criteria, as you can't let out a property without running water.  However, if it's to replace functional bathroom furnishings with brand new ones then it's a grey area unless the property is due to change hands in the next few weeks and the agreement in place requires the work to be done first.  The reality is if someone wants to ensure what they are doing properly complies with the law, they can't post a couple of sentences on here and expect a definitive response.  If they want a definitive response they need to contact a UK solicitor.  Maybe if they contact someone like Nick Freeman (aka Mr Loophole) then his practice will find them a necessary loophole, if one is needed.  You post possible loopholes on here like they are the law because some guy posted it on another forum!

Aranyani

bradders1983 said:

You could just answer the question?

NHS worker? Will you be finding the time again to do all the TikTok videos?

Are you really moronic enough to think the nurses did those during their shifts?  That there is ever any remote possibility of them being able to drop everything all at the same time?  Most days they struggle to get a quick lunch break.

They did those dances after work, after handing over their patients, to have a bit of positivity and downtime with their colleagues.

The only department that was quiet during the first lockdown was A&E because people stayed away out of fear of Covid, they aren’t doing that this time around. 

epm-84

cubegame said:

epm-84 said:

CKhalvashi said:

epm-84 said:

Nutty75 said:

I still haven’t found the answer if our reason for travel is valid during this lockdown - we have a property in Tenerife that we are hoping to rent out - but before we can rent it - we have a few plumbing issues to sort - and as my husband is a plumber he is carrying out these works himself.   The second reason is that we have been advised to have a Spanish Will drawn up so we have an appointment with our spanish Lawyer to go and sign the Will . Our daughters were due to fly out with us - but as they would be going for a holiday I have cancelled their flights as they obviously had no reason to travel - but I wish I could find out if our reasons are valid.  I did contact my travel insurance company and they thought that because my husband would be completing work on the apartment this would be acceptable - but they are coming back to me to confirm this and the Signing of the Will - I just wanted to check we would have insurance if we traveled - anyone have any idea? 

I'd say no.

Section 12 in the guidance refers to it not being permitted to stay overnight in your second home, as you don't currently rent it out it and don't live there it must be your second home.

Section 13 provides guidance for moving home and it's where people are claiming there's a loophole and you can pretend you're looking at buying a home abroad.  However, the section says "Follow the national guidance on moving home safely" and that links to a page where it specifically talks about moving to a new home in England, so there's nothing to suggest that extends to moving to a home abroad.

It's not your travel insurers responsibility to say whether a trip is legal, it's their responsibility to advise whether the cover you have is suitable for the trip you want to make.  

So you're saying it's illegal for someone to move abroad?

Not buying that.

Not everyone will be moving to a new home in England. Not legal advice, but IMO OP is therefore entitled to remain in that property overnight, as it's visiting a residential property to undertake any activities required for the rental or sale of that property.

The legislation makes no reference to the property being in England, and therefore it must be assumed as intended to be anywhere within the world. If the Government haven't written the legislation adequately, the onus is on them. That said, the government hasn't adequately done anything since being elected, so getting a piece of legislation correct isn't exactly within their capabilities.

Whether it's legal or not, realistically you can't buy a house in 95% of Europe as either local restrictions would get in the way or you'd have to self-isolate for 2 weeks each time you return, which would prevent you from letting anyone view your home in England. If you argue you'd be buying a second home then you might have to prove that's covered, given travelling to a second home isn't covered.

I think for most people if they claimed they were going to the Canaries to buy a house, if either the police or border control asked a few basic questions about their plans, they'd quickly find out it's a lie as buying a house needs a lot of planning, not just phoning up some random estate agent in Spain and making an appointment you plan to cancel as soon as you arrive.

The big issue for the poster in question is it does specifically say staying in your second home is not permitted and that doesn't have an exception for those repairing a home ahead of sale.  In the circumstances it would probably be easier to just get a local workman to do the necessary work or to postpone it for a few weeks.

The reality is that if you want to go overseas it's extremely unlikely that you will questioned on your reason for doing so.

In the extremely unlikely event of some plod stopping you on the way to or at an airport I think you would be making a huge assumption that they would spend any time considering and analysing your reason for travel which would involve an in-depth knowledge of purchasing a property abroad.

Police are trained to spot when people are lying.  If they are convinced when someone says the purpose of their trip is to buy property abroad they could easily ask a few questions, which someone not buying a property abroad would struggle to answer.

ToxicWomble

Leodogger said:

ToxicWomble said:

Technically it might be allowed, but it’s not urgent and can wait 3 weeks. Nothing much else is happening across Europe

Whilst people continue to loophole and circumnavigate the law and justify why they should not follow rules and advice -  this mess is going to drag on for many months longer than it needs to.

Doing what is asked of you is NOT going to hurt you or your family, in fact it may protect them from harm.

Personally I don’t agree with this lockdown, but I’m doing it and not trying to buck the system at every turn.
Yes high profile people have broken  the rules - but take the moral high ground and don’t sink to their level.

I haven’t had a holiday this year and won’t be booking abroad next year - it won’t kill me or hurt me - there’s always (hopefully) the year after. The world won’t end if you miss your oh so precious holiday but life might get back to normal quicker if you just do what’s right.

I see a lot of criticism of the government on here - I suggest the cause of a significant proportion of this mess is a lot closer to your home than you think.

I have ZERO sympathy for posters that don’t do what they know is right and believe their freedoms and life is more important than anyone else’s and even less for those who actively encourage this behaviour. 

Karma is a .... and it will come and get you when you least expect.

"Doing what is asked of you is NOT going to hurt you or your family".   I don't agree, for those of us who have limited incomes and had booked holidays and flights like us before this pandemic hit and the flights were constantly pushed back until pushed inside the lockdown by accident or design by the airlines, have lost a lot of money because we were made NOT to turn up by law which of course if it is flights like us, we may not get our money back.  Many people who couldn't afford to lose money have and are bitter about it !   It is no consolation when your airline is turning around like Ryanair and saying "tough", the flight was still running and you didn't notify us within 7 days, when we were only given 6 days notice by Boris, so that we could swap flights free of charge.     The upshot is that I have already written to my MP because we were not given enough notice and people like Michael O'Leary are trying to cash in on that because he uses any loophole he can find to try to rob people.  As for those who say it is not the airlines fault, some airlines have taken the honourable route and refunded money, albeit people will have to wait for it but other unscruplulous people revel in any circumstance to make money out of a pandemic !

You haven’t/won’t lose any money - just the holiday/flight since it’s been paid for anyway.

Not saying that it doesn’t have an impact or is right and that you shouldn’t be entitled to a refund but claiming poverty or hardship due to a lack of refund means you couldn’t afford it in the first place.

If not getting a refund hurts then having the holiday would have hurt as well by your logic.

ToxicWomble

Aranyani said:

bradders1983 said:

You could just answer the question?

NHS worker? Will you be finding the time again to do all the TikTok videos?

Are you really moronic enough to think the nurses did those during their shifts?  That there is ever any remote possibility of them being able to drop everything all at the same time?  Most days they struggle to get a quick lunch break.

They did those dances after work, after handing over their patients, to have a bit of positivity and downtime with their colleagues.

The only department that was quiet during the first lockdown was A&E because people stayed away out of fear of Covid, they aren’t doing that this time around. 

We may not agree on a lot of things  @Aranyani but on this we absolutley do 

cubegame

epm-84 said:

cubegame said:

epm-84 said:

CKhalvashi said:

epm-84 said:

Nutty75 said:

I still haven’t found the answer if our reason for travel is valid during this lockdown - we have a property in Tenerife that we are hoping to rent out - but before we can rent it - we have a few plumbing issues to sort - and as my husband is a plumber he is carrying out these works himself.   The second reason is that we have been advised to have a Spanish Will drawn up so we have an appointment with our spanish Lawyer to go and sign the Will . Our daughters were due to fly out with us - but as they would be going for a holiday I have cancelled their flights as they obviously had no reason to travel - but I wish I could find out if our reasons are valid.  I did contact my travel insurance company and they thought that because my husband would be completing work on the apartment this would be acceptable - but they are coming back to me to confirm this and the Signing of the Will - I just wanted to check we would have insurance if we traveled - anyone have any idea? 

I'd say no.

Section 12 in the guidance refers to it not being permitted to stay overnight in your second home, as you don't currently rent it out it and don't live there it must be your second home.

Section 13 provides guidance for moving home and it's where people are claiming there's a loophole and you can pretend you're looking at buying a home abroad.  However, the section says "Follow the national guidance on moving home safely" and that links to a page where it specifically talks about moving to a new home in England, so there's nothing to suggest that extends to moving to a home abroad.

It's not your travel insurers responsibility to say whether a trip is legal, it's their responsibility to advise whether the cover you have is suitable for the trip you want to make.  

So you're saying it's illegal for someone to move abroad?

Not buying that.

Not everyone will be moving to a new home in England. Not legal advice, but IMO OP is therefore entitled to remain in that property overnight, as it's visiting a residential property to undertake any activities required for the rental or sale of that property.

The legislation makes no reference to the property being in England, and therefore it must be assumed as intended to be anywhere within the world. If the Government haven't written the legislation adequately, the onus is on them. That said, the government hasn't adequately done anything since being elected, so getting a piece of legislation correct isn't exactly within their capabilities.

Whether it's legal or not, realistically you can't buy a house in 95% of Europe as either local restrictions would get in the way or you'd have to self-isolate for 2 weeks each time you return, which would prevent you from letting anyone view your home in England. If you argue you'd be buying a second home then you might have to prove that's covered, given travelling to a second home isn't covered.

I think for most people if they claimed they were going to the Canaries to buy a house, if either the police or border control asked a few basic questions about their plans, they'd quickly find out it's a lie as buying a house needs a lot of planning, not just phoning up some random estate agent in Spain and making an appointment you plan to cancel as soon as you arrive.

The big issue for the poster in question is it does specifically say staying in your second home is not permitted and that doesn't have an exception for those repairing a home ahead of sale.  In the circumstances it would probably be easier to just get a local workman to do the necessary work or to postpone it for a few weeks.

The reality is that if you want to go overseas it's extremely unlikely that you will questioned on your reason for doing so.

In the extremely unlikely event of some plod stopping you on the way to or at an airport I think you would be making a huge assumption that they would spend any time considering and analysing your reason for travel which would involve an in-depth knowledge of purchasing a property abroad.

Police are trained to spot when people are lying.  If they are convinced when someone says the purpose of their trip is to buy property abroad they could easily ask a few questions, which someone not buying a property abroad would struggle to answer.

Yes, theoretically a police officer could ask questions but I seriously doubt that they would be able to adequately exercise the correct discretion that their powers allow to prevent someone boarding a flight for which they have paid for and are legally entitled to board.

In a hypothetical situation where a passenger has 30 minutes to be able to board a plane you're in cloud cuckoo land if you think a uniformed officer would be able to correctly investigate if an reason for being away from home is valid. Far easier for them to wave you through warm and safe in the knowledge that their due diligence has been appropriate.

Leodogger

ToxicWomble said:

Leodogger said:

ToxicWomble said:

Technically it might be allowed, but it’s not urgent and can wait 3 weeks. Nothing much else is happening across Europe

Whilst people continue to loophole and circumnavigate the law and justify why they should not follow rules and advice -  this mess is going to drag on for many months longer than it needs to.

Doing what is asked of you is NOT going to hurt you or your family, in fact it may protect them from harm.

Personally I don’t agree with this lockdown, but I’m doing it and not trying to buck the system at every turn.
Yes high profile people have broken  the rules - but take the moral high ground and don’t sink to their level.

I haven’t had a holiday this year and won’t be booking abroad next year - it won’t kill me or hurt me - there’s always (hopefully) the year after. The world won’t end if you miss your oh so precious holiday but life might get back to normal quicker if you just do what’s right.

I see a lot of criticism of the government on here - I suggest the cause of a significant proportion of this mess is a lot closer to your home than you think.

I have ZERO sympathy for posters that don’t do what they know is right and believe their freedoms and life is more important than anyone else’s and even less for those who actively encourage this behaviour. 

Karma is a .... and it will come and get you when you least expect.

"Doing what is asked of you is NOT going to hurt you or your family".   I don't agree, for those of us who have limited incomes and had booked holidays and flights like us before this pandemic hit and the flights were constantly pushed back until pushed inside the lockdown by accident or design by the airlines, have lost a lot of money because we were made NOT to turn up by law which of course if it is flights like us, we may not get our money back.  Many people who couldn't afford to lose money have and are bitter about it !   It is no consolation when your airline is turning around like Ryanair and saying "tough", the flight was still running and you didn't notify us within 7 days, when we were only given 6 days notice by Boris, so that we could swap flights free of charge.     The upshot is that I have already written to my MP because we were not given enough notice and people like Michael O'Leary are trying to cash in on that because he uses any loophole he can find to try to rob people.  As for those who say it is not the airlines fault, some airlines have taken the honourable route and refunded money, albeit people will have to wait for it but other unscruplulous people revel in any circumstance to make money out of a pandemic !

You haven’t/won’t lose any money - just the holiday/flight since it’s been paid for anyway.

Not saying that it doesn’t have an impact or is right and that you shouldn’t be entitled to a refund but claiming poverty or hardship due to a lack of refund means you couldn’t afford it in the first place.

If not getting a refund hurts then having the holiday would have hurt as well by your logic.

What are you talking about, of course we have lost the money if Ryanair refuse to pay and how do you know what people can afford?    I was not going on holiday, I was going to visit my daughter in Spain and so it only costs us the money for the flights!!  We actually save money on our heating and bills when we are not in the UK and so we CAN afford to go in winter !

ToxicWomble

You previously said you had lost money from a holiday and flight and now add in extra information about it just being a flight.

I still maintain that you haven’t lost the money - just the product that you purchased. (Doesn’t mean you aren’t entitled to a refund)

If I buy a £100 coat and lose it - I have lost a coat not £100 so will suffer no financial hardship from that.

Just a different way of looking at it.