Expensive phone discarded by Amazon Returns

LaHostessAvecLaMostess

Manxman_in_exile said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Fentoozler90 said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

ramthor said:

Fentoozler90, sorry to hear about your issues with Amazon.

I am the original poster on this thread which I did ask to be deleted after all the hostility received for only asking for advice on a public forum supposedly aimed at helping the consumer. I see you are getting the same treatment as I have been given which is sad but not surprising for me. That's why I never posted anything here since and I never will. This reply is because I got notified on my email about the thread being active again after such long time.

If you are interested to know what happened to the phone that Amazon "discarded" just because they could... well it's still discarded and no compensation was ever given. I returned the non-5G version that I bought from Amazon and issued a full refund and that's it as far as Amazon is concerned. 

If this thread remains visible, then it can act as a warning for other people in the same situation: if you make a mistake in returning something to Amazon, you can say good-bye to it forever. You're never going to see it again.

Bottom line, Amazon is above the law and posting for advice on this forum is a waste of time.

I think if you bothered to read the replies to this thread properly you will see that you were given good advice from the outset.  In the very first reply Aylesbury_duck advised you to make a written complaint to Amazon (if you had not already done so) and that if that did not resolve the matter then you would have to sue them etc etc.  That advice was later repeated by Aylesbury_duck and also by Waamo.  It's basically the same advice that I've given to Fentoozler90 above earlier today, except that I've added that Amazon need to be sued for the tort of conversion where they've deprived somebody of their property.

It's true that some posters (including myself) queried how you could possibly have mistakenly returned your husband's phone to Amazon rather than the one you had just bought from them.  It seemed an unlikely thing to have happened.  You were told at the time that Amazon would also almost certainly challenge your account of what had happened so it would be as well for you to get used to defending your version of events rather than everyone saying how sorry they were for you for making such a mistake.

Amazon aren't above the law but they will continue to act as if they are so long people allow them to get away with it by not suing them.  Did you follow the advice to send them a Letter Before Claim and then follow it up?

(FWIW I don't buy anything from Amazon because I don't like how they do business... )

I’ve started proceedings with a small claims court today thank you all for the advice nobody here has said anything Amazon hadn’t which is why I have evidence of every correspondence I even started informing them I was recording there calls just as they were since when I asked for the call records they refused to give me them. http://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk is my next step following one final letter affording Amazon to offer a reasonable resolution. 

In Luxembourg?  Because the legal entity is in Luxembourg, not the UK and the T&C's state that it is under Luxembourgian law, not UK law.

Whilst I appreciate that the glorious nation of Luxembourg may be a nice place to visit, it could be quite expensive to do so for a court case.

But why is any of that relevant in the OP's situation?  

If he decides he wants to sue Amazon, the OP's cause of action wouldn't have anything to do with contract law or what jurisdiction governs the contract, would it?

That's because he wouldn't be suing them for a breach of contract at all - he'd be suing Amazon because they've either lost or destroyed property* belonging to him.   I'm pretty sure the law doesn't allow a person to deprive another person of their property, either by destroying it or by just losing it, without being liable to pay the property owner compensation.  It must be covered by the tort of conversion and/or the duties of an involuntary bailee, mustn't it? It's irrelevant whether the original contract of sale is governed by Luxembourg law or not because the OP wouldn't be suing under contract law - they'd be suing under English and Welsh tort law for the recovery of their property or its value.

And as to the defendant, surely the OP would be suing whichever Amazon entity he "returned" the wrong computer to and which has lost or destroyed it?  (But I agree that if the OP decides to sue he does need to make sure he's suing the "right" Amazon.  How he ensures that I freely admit I don't know as I have never bought anything from Amazon and don't intend ever to do so... )

It's because this isn't really a run of the mill consumer issue about consumer rights or faulty goods and contract terms etc, that I advised the OP yesterday to visit the Consumer Action Group and seek their opinion as to what their options are in this situation.  I'm pretty certain I've read threads on there where they've helped people get compensation for destroyed property based on conversion claims against people like Hermes. 

Again I strongly advise the OP to visit CAG and ask their advice as to how - or even whether - to proceed.  Because this isn't a straightforward consumer or contract claim he will need advice as to how to draft a LBA and Particulars of Claim. 

And - of course - the OP needs to remember that Amazon tend not to like being sued (or so I've read... )


*Remember - the property we are talking about that Amazon have discarded/lost/destroyed is not covered by any contract with Amazon - it was bought from Currys.

You can't just sue someone because they have some connection to some other company.

The OP has a contract with Amazon EU, not Amazon Services UK LTD (or any other UK variant that you want to spin up.)

Therefore they need to sue Amazon EU, which have no tangible assets in the UK.

Again, you cannot just sue people because they have a connection, you need to sue the entity you have a relationship with.

This is basic law, although I am not surprised to see the usual suspects arguing the sky is purple because, ya know, they're idiots

The OP can sue Amazon EU and they may win by default, but as they have no tangible UK assets they have to take it to Luxembourg for enforcement, which then begs the question why not sue them in Luxembourg and cut out the two visits to court.  If the OP sues Amazon Services UK they may win by default but have no way of actually enforcing that debt as it will get set aside the moment they try to do so, as it is the wrong legal entity to sue.

born_again

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Zero filing history, zero assets.

Next!

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03223028/filing-history

13 Sep 2021

Full accounts made up to 31 December 2020

Funny what you find on page 19 of the PDF

Manxman_in_exile

born_again said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Zero filing history, zero assets.

Next!

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03223028/filing-history

13 Sep 2021

Full accounts made up to 31 December 2020

Funny what you find on page 19 of the PDF

Are you saying LaHostessAvecLaMostess is wrong?!

Manxman_in_exile

born_again said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

In Luxembourg?  Because the legal entity is in Luxembourg, not the UK and the T&C's state that it is under Luxembourgian law, not UK law.

Whilst I appreciate that the glorious nation of Luxembourg may be a nice place to visit, it could be quite expensive to do so for a court case.

...You stated that Amazon UK Services Ltd does not exist in the below thread and have been proved wrong..

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6312978/amazon-to-stop-accepting-visa-credit-cards-from-january-2022-here-s-all-you-need-to-know#latest

Do you mean where another poster replied to LaHostessAvecLaMostess:  



"Here's the Companies House entry for Amazon UK Services Ltd, the company which paid the £18.3million corporation tax to to which I and other posters have referred, and which you say doesn't exist:

AMAZON UK SERVICES LTD. filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK (company-information.service.gov.uk) 

You obviously don't understand the meaning of "legal entity".

And as you have made it very clear you don't know what you're talking about I won't be engaging with any more of your ill informed baiting nonsense"



I think I'll follow their excellent advice...

LaHostessAvecLaMostess

born_again said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Zero filing history, zero assets.

Next!

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03223028/filing-history

13 Sep 2021

Full accounts made up to 31 December 2020

Funny what you find on page 19 of the PDF

That's the filing history of Amazon Services UK, not Amazon EU, which is the entity the OP contracted with.

Money_Grabber13579

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

born_again said:

Perhaps you need to read the Op.

>>> Two months ago I bought a £850 phone from Amazon.co.uk. <<<

I'm aware of the OP although this thread has been hijacked by someone else.

When you buy from Amazon in the UK you're buying from Amazon EU, who appear to have no UK presence at all.

Do they not?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/BR017427

when you purchase from Amazon, you are purchasing from the UK Branch of Amazon EU Sarl, which is very much a UK presence. It might not be a UK legal entity but it’s still a presence and Amazon’s own website confirms that they operate in accordance with UK law. 

Zero filing history, zero assets.

Next!

Zero filing history you say? Really?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/FC032354/filing-history

Amazon EU files its accounts with Companies House, as it is legally required to do, given it operates in the UK as a branch of that company. I know that you’ll come back with some other “smart” response which will just further prove that you don’t know anything about UK company law.

LaHostessAvecLaMostess

Money_Grabber13579 said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Money_Grabber13579 said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

born_again said:

Perhaps you need to read the Op.

>>> Two months ago I bought a £850 phone from Amazon.co.uk. <<<

I'm aware of the OP although this thread has been hijacked by someone else.

When you buy from Amazon in the UK you're buying from Amazon EU, who appear to have no UK presence at all.

Do they not?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/BR017427

when you purchase from Amazon, you are purchasing from the UK Branch of Amazon EU Sarl, which is very much a UK presence. It might not be a UK legal entity but it’s still a presence and Amazon’s own website confirms that they operate in accordance with UK law. 

Zero filing history, zero assets.

Next!

Zero filing history you say? Really?

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/FC032354/filing-history

Amazon EU files its accounts with Companies House, as it is legally required to do, given it operates in the UK as a branch of that company. I know that you’ll come back with some other “smart” response which will just further prove that you don’t know anything about UK company law.

It's a Luxembourg entity. How exactly are you going to extract money from an entity with no assets in the UK?

Just looks at the returns, they're just the returns for Amazon EU in Luxembourg!

Hell, half of the returns are in French!

Again, how are you going to enforce a judgement against an entity that has no assets in the UK?  You people need to stop with the trivial objections as some way to win an argument, it's a logical fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trivial_objections

wizzywig27

Same happened to me, In my instance it was a £100 SSD - so not the end of the world I'd just like my old SSD (and the files that were on it) to be returned. There was no mention of my items being discarded in my email, however every time I have replied I just get the same email back, which is below:

Thank you for writing to us. We have noticed unusual activity on your account. When unusual account activity comes to our attention, we review each account to determine if additional action is necessary, including account closure. We would prefer to do all we can to help you avoid any problems with your Amazon orders.

Your comments and suggestions will help us improve our store and offer better service to our customers.
We received old and used WD SSD instead of the original item WD 1TB My Passport Portable SSD with NVMe Technology, USB-C, Read Speeds of up to 1050MB/s &amp; Write Speeds of up to 1000MB/s. Works with PC, Xbox, Play from your order #

At this time we cannot issue a refund for the items you returned to Amazon.

If you would like to appeal this decision, please reply to this email to reach an Account Specialist. Our Customer Service team can only confirm that we sent this message and help you with technical issues. They cannot reverse this decision or share more details on this matter.

born_again

Manxman_in_exile said:

born_again said:

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Zero filing history, zero assets.

Next!

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/03223028/filing-history

13 Sep 2021

Full accounts made up to 31 December 2020

Funny what you find on page 19 of the PDF

Are you saying LaHostessAvecLaMostess is wrong?!

@Manxman_in_exile
 I'll let you draw you own well informed conclusion on that one.

anotheruser

LaHostessAvecLaMostess said:

Fentoozler90 said:

a few weeks later I got an email from them saying the one I returned wasn’t bought from them and they are discarding the incorrectly returned item

Yeah, right.

So they just threw a grand plus item in the bin and told you to go swivel?

Not sure why this is so difficult to believe.
£1000 to amazon is a drop in the ocean.
They haven't lost any money.
The hardware could be loaded with spyware - harldly worth the risk in sending it out to another customer.

Amazon won't want to say exactly what happens to incorrectly returned items, so using terms "discarded" is a bit of a catch all phrase that is the one I expect from a large company such as theirs.

Likely it goes on a pallet and gets sold in bulk to someone, or in a staff shop (Argos used to have this)