£60 fine for a 4 minute stop Help

Le_Kirk

Usually applying to the local council and asking them who pays the non-domestic business rates does it; some councils have this information on a spreadsheet available from their web site.  Finally it is possible to enquire of the Land Registry.  It costs £3 per application (or did the last time I did it) so make sure you have the right address/postcode/piece of land.

jamesmc80

Le_Kirk said:

jamesmc80 said:

hi there i am new to the forum so I am not sure if I'm in the right place. 
I received a private parking charge notice on 6th August from park watch demeaning I pay £100 reduced to 60 if paid in 14 days. The letter shows 2 pictures of the vehicle I was in stopped at the very edge of the small plot of land and just an entry time of 13.34. I was stopped for 4 minutes to take a telephone call regarding taking time off to attend the funeral of my father in law. I didnt even think that I was causing an obstruction I merely stopped to make the arrangements. I appealled the fine using the internal process and received the appeal back saying the fine is correct. On taking a closer look at the appeal reply I noticed that I had made an error on the appeal reference number and recieved someone else's vehicles details. I managed to contact park watch to inform them of the error and they explained to me it shouldn't of shouldn't HAVE allowed me to input the wrong appeal ref number and to re submit my appeal directly to an inbox of a staff member at park watch and she told me I would receive an outcome in 24hrs. I have received an outcome and they still want 60 pounds within 10 days otherwise it rises to 100 pounds. My question is if I take this to popla am I going to end up paying the higher rate and what are my chances to get this cancelled as 4 minutes to me should not cost £60. Sorry its long winded but any help with this would be much appreciated 🙏 

If you have read the NEWBIE sticky (I sincerely hope you did) then you will know that the vast majority of appeals are rejected - how else would they make any money?  What did you put in the appeal, did you reveal yourself as driver?  You can go to POPLA and use all of the arguments listed in the third post of the NEWBIE sticky.  When they rejected your appeal did you receive a POPLA code?
Did they really put shouldn't of or was that your error?

I'm reading through now

Many thanks

jamesmc80

Redx said:

so its a company vehicle and you are not the registered keeper ?

did you receive the pcn in your own name ?

if there was no contract to park, the driver did not enter into a contract and that means its forbidding signage

no contract was offered and it seems to me the driver did have the grace period to decide to stay or go, they went

you need to read that newbies thread avout appealing as a keeper who is a hirer or lessee if its a company vehicle , but as you have already appealed and failed , then its the next stage for you , which is a popla appeal

hence another reason why I asked you if you have told parkwatch who the driver was ?

in future, stop on a public road, not a private car park, or you will get more of these, lots more

Yes the pcn came through the post and in my appeal I wrote that I was stopped for no more than 4 mins. I have slit my own throat by admitting that. I lost my father in law and the stop was actually to take a call to my company about booking time off for funeral arrangements but this company don't even care they want my money

Redx

ok , so POFA does not help you due to admitting you were driving , in future , no blabbing about who was driving, your firm named you as lessee, day to day keeper, they have no idea who the driver was as only you were present

so the main popla appeal issues are

GRACE PERIODS (BPA CoP) , clause 13 , 4 minutes is not a minimum 5 minutes and 2 minutes is irrelevant

NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY

POOR SIGNAGE

etc

Coupon-mad

You ruined a 100% winnable position by blabbing about who was driving.  Should have come here earlier.

Unlikely to now win at POPLA but hey ho, most of these cases are won in court in the end.

The NEWBIES thread tells you how to appeal to POPLA.  Give it a go anyway but no paying!

jamesmc80

Redx said:

your company cannot, repeat CANNOT tell them you were the driver, they were not present and did not witness the incident

all your company can tell them is who was the keeper of the vehicle on the day, the hirer or the lessee, not the driver, they did not see who was driving, so they have assumed it , same as parkwatch have done , unless you told parkwatch by blabbing about who was driving ? (self incrimination ?)

parkwatch have to follow the BPA CoP, not some arbitrary figure of 2 minutes

I did tell you to read the CoP, so here is what it says

clause 13

13 Consideration and Grace Periods

13.1 The driver must have the chance to consider the Terms and Conditions before entering into the ‘parking contract’ with you. If, having had that opportunity, the driver decides not to park but chooses to leave the car park, you must provide them with a reasonable consideration period to leave, before the driver can be bound by your parking contract. The amount of time in these instances will vary dependant on site size and type but it must be a minimum of 5 minutes.

so it says a minimum of 5 minutes , not 2 minutes

i quoted this to them in my appeal and they told me that it does not apply on private land. So am I being lied to and is this bullying tactics ?. I am reading through the newbies thread and I am a little stuck now as I have inadvertently told them I was driving. 
I just don't fancy having to pay 100 quid if popla decline my appeal 

jamesmc80

Redx said:

download and read the BPA CoP , clause 13, regarding grace periods

the pcn wont be for obstruction, its for stopping for 4 minutes on private property

have you inadvertently told Parkwatch who the driver was ? I hope not, but people do blab

these are the pictures with the times on that the member of staff has sent me today with the evidence of times entry was 13.34.22 and exit was 13.38.47 so just over 4 minutes.

Redx

any appeal or defence in court is about the items I mentioned earlier, where a POPLA assessor or a judge can decide

doesnt matter what we think or what Parkwatch think, it is whatever either of those 2 think about the 3 issues I mentioned

there would have been POFA as the best issue if you had not told them who was driving, by using the word I

the best option is get the landowner to get it cancelled, if you find out who that is, it is ALWAYS the best course of action

the choice on what to do is yours , personally I believe the BPA CoP is correct, so perhaps report them to the BPA online for breaching clause 13 of the BPA CoP, see what they say , add copies of all paperwork to your complaint

jamesmc80

Redx said:

any appeal or defence in court is about the items I mentioned earlier, where a POPLA assessor or a judge can decide

doesnt matter what we think or what Parkwatch think, it is whatever either of those 2 think about the 3 issues I mentioned

there would have been POFA as the best issue if you had not told them who was driving, by using the word I

the best option is get the landowner to get it cancelled, if you find out who that is, it is ALWAYS the best course of action

the choice on what to do is yours , personally I believe the BPA CoP is correct, so perhaps report them to the BPA online for breaching clause 13 of the BPA CoP, see what they say , add copies of all paperwork to your complaint

Yes I think this will be my first point of action followed by trying to find out who the land owner is. Its a nightmare. I am a little stumped by how not admitting you are the driver makes it easier to have your appeal upheld but i am not the brightest button. I do appreciate you help though 🙏 

KeithP

I am a little stumped by how not admitting you are the driver makes it easier to have your appeal upheld...

Obviously, it is the driver who allegedly parked where they should not have done.

If the parking company do not know who the driver is, they have to use the Protection of Freedoms Act to transfer that driver's liability to the keeper. A lot of these companies have great difficulty complying with POFA. Some of them don't even try. If those companies don't know who the driver is, then they are going to struggle to pin the alleged contravention on anyone.