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Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd - Not Clearly Displaying a Valid Permit

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Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd - Not Clearly Displaying a Valid Permit

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HergestPhilHergestPhil Forumite
17 posts
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I got a PCN last week, and I appealed to the company Private Parking Solutions (London) Ltd, before I stumbled across this site.
My appeal was rejected, and now I'm wondering if I should continue to fight it.  Maybe my case is not as strong as I thought?  I followed their guidelines for appealing, which I now realise confirms that I was the driver of the vehicle.

My appeal:
"I would like to appeal the Parking Charge Notice incident recorded on __/__/____.   I was attending a physiotherapy session at this location, which I was authorised to attend - I had a valid reason to be in the car park at this time, and I have attached evidence of the invite to attend at this time.  I was only in the car park for the 30 minute duration of this approved appointment.   I was unfamiliar with this location, as due to Covid-19 my usual location was closed and I was redirected here.
  The car park was virtually empty and I parked right next to the building entrance.   Upon arrival I was greeted by my physio, who was waiting for me.  I was immediately requested to follow her into the building for my appointment.  I did not see any parking notice signage, as the parking spot was right next to the front door into the building, so I did not pass any signs as I followed my host.  My host did not mention there was any need for a parking ticket, and I assumed this was okay seeing in the current situation with lockdown there was plenty of capacity with most businesses closed.   Staffing in the building was much reduced due to Covid-19 and social distancing.  There was no-one on the reception desk, which I now understand is the point I should go to get a parking permit for display in the car.  So it was impossible to obtain a ticket to display even if I had seen a sign or had been informed of the need to display a ticket.  This is why the physio came to greet me at the car park to get me through the front door.   I have attached two photos showing the bay where I parked.  This is surrounded in a brick wall that clearly has no signage.   I have attached another photo showing the car in relation to the entrance.  You can clearly see I was parked to the right of the brick wall, and would have followed this wall immediately right, up the stairs to the building entrance.  There is clearly no sign on the right hand side of the brick wall along the short route that I would have followed; I did not pass any sign to inform me of a need to display a parking permit.   I have subsequently been back for another appointment, where i parked further away to the left hand side and I did see signage as I walked in.  There was a receptionist on this visit that gave me a ticket from and I correctly displayed on my dashboard.   I feel it is unfair to be charged under the circumstances of my first visit.  I am now aware of the parking ticket system and will follow these rules for any future visits whilst I am being treated. "

Their response was:

"The charge was issued because your vehicle was left parked in an enforcement zone with no valid permit on display, which is contrary to the advertised on the signage terms and conditions of parking. The signage at the location in question states that parking is for permit holders only and that permit must be on display at all times.
I have considered your grounds of appeal and whilst I do not dispute that you were on the site for your intended purpose, however, this fact alone does not entitle you to park without the need to comply with the parking terms.
Having viewed the photographic evidence, your vehicle can be seen close to signs stating the parking regulations. Signage clearly states that a valid parking permit must be displayed at all times. The signs are readable and positioned in a way that could allow you to understand the terms and conditions. At the point you have decided to park without the required permit on display, you have immediately breached the terms and conditions and accepted the potential consequence of incurring a PCN.
The reasons you have put forward for parking in a clearly regulated parking area do not justify parking otherwise than in accordance with the restrictions. You will appreciate that everyone has what they regard as reasonable grounds for parking. The location is private land and as such, there is a need to ensure that only vehicles conforming to the advertised restrictions can park on site.
Upon consideration of the evidence, I conclude that the parking charge is issued correctly and I refuse your appeal.
Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the motorist to read the signs and adhere to the terms and conditions of the site."

Do I have a reasonable chance that POPLA would throw this case out?  It seems the appeal at this stage is about whether the PCN was issued correctly; I'm not sure what category my appeal reasons can fall under.
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Replies

  • edited 21 July at 5:33PM
    HergestPhilHergestPhil Forumite
    17 posts
    10 Posts
    edited 21 July at 5:33PM
    The parking permit is free, so there was no cost to park there, I simply did not see any signs that I needed to display one, and was not informed how to get one, and I couldn't get one as there was no receptionist on the site, as far as I could tell due to Covid-19 lockdown.  I don't have much proof of that.

    Here are some photos that they provided.

    I can now see the sign on the wall in front of the car, which I even missed when I wrote my appeal.  When sitting in the car, it is not possible to see the sign as it is behind a hedge:
    drive.google.com/file/d/16mY5zJoIcQprpP7sEPhOfrCZmtHA28oU/view?usp=sharing

    There is a sign on a wall, that they also show near my car, but I did not pass this to get in the building:
    drive.google.com/file/d/1cmNNaCtvOSHWC4V1biw_pZmh1M39bsBV/view?usp=sharing

  • edited 7 July at 11:09PM
    RedxRedx Forumite
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    edited 7 July at 11:09PM
    I am sure your categories are

    Poor and inadequate signage
    No landowner authorisation
    Frustration of contract (nobody at the desk to inform you of the requirements or issue a permit)
    the CRA 2015

    ALSO THAT IS A BREACH AS CONFIRMED IN THEIR REPLY AND SO IS A PENALTY and so the Beavis case confirms its a penalty and the penalty option is engaged, so no parking contract offered and so trespassing which PPS London cannot enforce, only the landowner , its a case of forbidding signage and they have clearly stated its a breach

    nobody can second guess POPLA and in any case POPLA are not processing appeals due to the same issue (covid)

    if you have read the newbies thread properly, you have made no mention of doing PLAN A

    why have you not tried plan A ? this is your best option for any private pcn

    did PPS london comply with POFA on that NTK ?
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • HergestPhilHergestPhil Forumite
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    I complained to the receptionist today, who said the parking company is not related to the building, which hosts many different companies.  It's not like a retail park.
  • edited 7 July at 11:34PM
    RedxRedx Forumite
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    edited 7 July at 11:34PM
    that nugget of information wasnt in your two posts above !!

    it still has a landowner, you should have asked who that was, or the managing agent

    in which case I repeat, your best option is a landowner cancellation, even if its via the managing agent

    find out who pays the NDR on the land , or try the Land Registry

    and its still a penalty as admitted due to the word BREACH, so trespassing which PPS LONDON cannot issue

    plus the poor signage , frustration of contract etc

    I also repeat, DID THE NTK COMPLY FULLY WITH POFA ? yes or no ?
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • HergestPhilHergestPhil Forumite
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    10 Posts
    I also repeat, DID THE NTK COMPLY FULLY WITH POFA ? yes or no ?
    I'm sorry, this is all new to me, a bit overwhelmed by it all.  I'm still trying to understand the question.
  • edited 7 July at 11:58PM
    RedxRedx Forumite
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    edited 7 July at 11:58PM
    the law named POFA was enacted almost 8 years ago

    I am asking you if the NTK that arrived in the post complied with the law

    if it did then as keeper you are deemed liable in which case naming the driver wont have damaged your case because as keeper and as driver you are responsible , POFA protects those where its different people and the driver wasnt revealed and the PPC failed POFA which is not a mandatory law

    its in the newbies faq sticky thread near the top of this forum and has been for over 7 years , so timescales and wording matter

    Beckham got off a speeding charge because the notice came a day late, he was definitely guilty but got off on a technicality due to the police or authorities failing their duty in law

    the CRA 2015 is another law , hence my inclusion earlier

    it is also mandatory that this land is registered with the Land Registry by the owner, that is their job in life, any contracts must flow from the landowner to the PPC , even if its by a third party managing agent (MA)

    so maybe the land is managed by Savills for example, but owned by British Land or a pension fund or an investment bank or whatever

    you said the premises are not the landowner, so you should have asked who they rent from, the managing agents details , and/or the landowner details, so you could complain to the organ grinder and not the monkey

    popla codes last up to 33 days and a holding appeal can be placed at this time, so use say 28 days to find out those details, complain and get it cancelled direct, which many people coming here have done during this covid pandemic , this is by far your best option

    I believe a judge would throw this out and give you a win on a technicality, but that could be up to 6 years in the future, hence my advice
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • HergestPhilHergestPhil Forumite
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    10 Posts
    Okay, I think the building I was attending is managed by Regus, an Office Rental Agency.  I have found a web form to contact them.  I don't know if anyone will respond to that, but I've entered a complain through this.
  • edited 8 July at 3:05AM
    Coupon-madCoupon-mad Forumite
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    edited 8 July at 3:05AM
    Do I have a reasonable chance that POPLA would throw this case out? 
    Yes, if you can show from your photos that there were no signs that were near the car (and no entrance sign?).

    It seems the appeal at this stage is about whether the PCN was issued correctly; I'm not sure what category my appeal reasons can fall under.
    Why ask about POPLA 'categories' when the NEWBIES thread post #3 covers POPLA stage, gives you template wording and tells everyone to submit their POPLA appeal under OTHER.  This is why the sticky thread is at the top of the forum.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • RedxRedx Forumite
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    I didn't realise that the word categories meant all the submission options , because everyone is told to use

    Other

    I thought it meant legal points , so now you have both  , use other and upload the file as a pdf attachment to Popla , before the deadline , but trying for the MA or landowner cancellation in the meantime , that is the priority and yes try Regus as a starter , do not be fobbed off , be like a dog with a bone , be a Poirot , not a Clouseau
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
  • D_P_DanceD_P_Dance Forumite
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    Have you read this

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

    Is it applicable?  If so, have they complied?

    Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the scammer extra costs, and in some cases, cancellation. 

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up later this year,

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these companies, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/of these Private Parking Companies.





    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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