Waters & Gate Threatening Debt Collection - Province of Pisa Italy

Timeforacuppa

Waters and Gate saga!! 

Went to Italy in 2020 and shortly after received two fines. Tried paying them, but couldn't access the webpage to pay as it stated that this site was trying to steal financial and personal data. so immediately thought it was a scam.

Several months later, I got the fines again and they had increased. Contacted them via email as this was the only way I could contact them from the letter I received. Explained what had happened, contacted them several times to resolve the matter and even again after I received another reminder and still never got a response. Didn't hear from them again.

Then in July 2022 Waters and Gate landed on the doormat, explained the situation and apparently my appeal is NOT valid  - even though I sent my paper trail of emails and a screenshot of the website when I went to pay to initial fines.

KeithP

Timeforacuppa said:

Waters and Gate saga!! 

Went to Italy in 2020 and shortly after received two fines. Tried paying them, but couldn't access the webpage to pay as it stated that this site was trying to steal financial and personal data. so immediately thought it was a scam.

Several months later, I got the fines again and they had increased. Contacted them via email as this was the only way I could contact them from the letter I received. Explained what had happened, contacted them several times to resolve the matter and even again after I received another reminder and still never got a response. Didn't hear from them again.

Then in July 2022 Waters and Gate landed on the doormat, explained the situation and apparently my appeal is NOT valid  - even though I sent my paper trail of emails and a screenshot of the website when I went to pay to initial fines.

Hello and welcome.

You have already wasted too much time on this.

Can I suggest you read the first reply on this thread?
It's only two lines long but covers everything you need to know.

patient_dream

FOOLISH Polizia in Florence   .... "but they emailed me saying they could not take the money as it was now in the hands of Waters and Gate" ... NOW THEY WON'T GET ANY MONEY ?

Coupon-mad

Timeforacuppa said:

Waters and Gate saga!! 

Went to Italy in 2020 and shortly after received two fines. Tried paying them, but couldn't access the webpage to pay as it stated that this site was trying to steal financial and personal data. so immediately thought it was a scam.

Several months later, I got the fines again and they had increased. Contacted them via email as this was the only way I could contact them from the letter I received. Explained what had happened, contacted them several times to resolve the matter and even again after I received another reminder and still never got a response. Didn't hear from them again.

Then in July 2022 Waters and Gate landed on the doormat, explained the situation and apparently my appeal is NOT valid  - even though I sent my paper trail of emails and a screenshot of the website when I went to pay to initial fines.

I don't know why you are taking it seriously?

TheCritchster

There’s some bad advice on this and other MSE forum discussions about Waters & Gates.

I assume that Lukas has resolved his case by now; but also that others reading this have had similar letters, and may be worried.

It’s wrong to say that all Italian debts are unenforceable in the UK.  The question is whether this is an enforceable debt. I very much doubt it, but you should investigate. I wouldn’t listen to gung-ho advice to ignore the letter from people who don’t show any special knowledge and who don’t suffer the consequences if they’re wrong.

Waters & Gates – a trading name for Clear Castle Limited, with FCA Reg. No. 711769 – is a debt collector according to the FCA's website. Debt collection implies civil courts, but I don’t think foreign criminal or administrative penalties are enforeable through the civil courts.

To be sure, you should interrogate Waters & Gate. The English/Welsh Civil Procedure Rules say that, before starting court action, claimants should give enough details of their claim so you can decide whether to pay it. If the first time they set out a good case is in the proceedings, you have a very good argument that – even if you do pay the claim – you shouldn’t pay the costs of the proceedings. See §16 of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct and Protocols. I can't post the link, as I'm a MSE newbie, but it's easy to find on Google.

I received a similar letter from Waters & Gate last week. I didn’t come here for advice on what to do (I don’t need it). I just wanted to know if someone had posted experience of what happens after the letter (they haven’t). I therefore sent this email to Waters & Gate:

TheCritchster

“Dear Sir/Madam,

I have received a Notice of Collection Proceedings from you on behalf of the City of Sepi (Pisa). It is dated 8 January 2024.

The Notice quotes account number D529855 and protocol 128157, and alleges a penalty fee of £452.75 concerning vehicle registration GF301NT. I therefore assume that the alleged penalty relates to a traffic infringement, but no details are given.

I did drive a hired car in Pisa … in August 2022.

It will come as no surprise that I do not expect to pay the penalty without more details of the alleged infringement, and the steps you will take if it is not paid. In this regard, a vague reference to legal action will not suffice. If English civil court proceedings are threatened, I require full details under §6 and §6(a) of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

Please include:

    (a) details of the infringement; and

    (b) whether an Italian court order has been made or governmental administrative penalty has been issued against me and, if so:

       i.  the details of it; and

       ii.  your client’s English cause of action; i.e. the post-Brexit legal basis for its ability to enforce any such order or penalty in this jurisdiction.

I would usually pay a penalty that was properly issued by a respected state such as Italy rather than avoid it on the basis of its unenforceability. However, £452.75 seems astonishingly steep for any infringement that I could imagine that I committed.

Yours faithfully,”

TheCritchster

If they send me a sensible reply, I will post it on this thread (promise!). If I don’t post again, you can assume that they didn’t.

Coupon-mad

TheCritchster said:

There’s some bad advice on this and other MSE forum discussions about Waters & Gates.

I assume that Lukas has resolved his case by now; but also that others reading this have had similar letters, and may be worried.

It’s wrong to say that all Italian debts are unenforceable in the UK.  The question is whether this is an enforceable debt. I very much doubt it, but you should investigate. 

We disagree that our advice is wrong; have over a decade of experience in what we do. 

I wouldn’t listen to gung-ho advice to ignore the letter from people who don’t show any special knowledge and who don’t suffer the consequences if they’re wrong.

I'm on the Government Steering Group helping to inform the new statutory Code of Practice regarding private parking and related debt collection conduct, so the entire country of motorists - including me and my family - will suffer the consequences if I get what I do wrong!

The DLUHC don't see me as gung-ho. 

NOTHING WILL HAPPEN IN YOUR CASE.

TheCritchster

So I’ve had a response from Waters & Gate:

"Please find attached a copy of your Notification of Infringement . 

We are just working on The City of Sepi's behalf, no legal action will be taken by us. 

I can see that your violation is still in transit. On that basis, as there is no proof of delivery we can offer you a settlement of £189.22. Please let us know if you would like to proceed with accepting the offer and we can send you payment details. 

Kind regards"

It's not clear why that’s a reason to offer a settlement, or why I should accept it if they’re not going to take action.

The Notification (in English) – which was for entering a restricted traffic zone (well sign-posted, I’m sure) – offered €118 for payment in 5 days, and €143 for payment in 60 days, after which €226 would be collected by the tax authority; so the only stated method of enforcement was against Italians.

I sent this reply:

"Thanks for sending the Notification of Infringement, and the confirmation that no action will be taken by you.

I can see that Avis Italy hit me with a charge only slightly less than the fine, which I assume is an admin fee for handing over my details.

Fines are meant to be punitive, not compensatory or revenue-raising; so I trust the City of Sepi will agree that justice has been done on this occasion courtesy of Avis. Therefore, unless I’m told that someone will take action and – in answer to the question in my first email – the legal basis for it, I don’t think I’ll pay it

kind regards"

I don’t anticipate a response from them worth replying to.

Coupon-mad

I can see that your violation is still in transit. On that basis, as there is no proof of delivery we can offer you a settlement of £189.22.

The above is hilarious!  "In transit"...