Trying to get a deposit back on a puppy

powerful_Rogue

Fairplay1969 said:

soolin said:

Fairplay1969 said:

soolin said:

Fairplay1969 said:

Thank you for your most helpful post 'The Rainmaker'.

The law needs firming up to protect us "clueless buyers", whose only crime is to TRUST their fellow human beings. If you see a 5 star breeder advert on an online pet shop, doesn't that give a sense of security that the transaction is all good? Like buying a new pair of jeans from a reputable online retailer, you know you can return them if they don't fit? Whatever way you look at it there is only one guilty party: the unscrupulous sellers.

If you are a genuine breeder, you should be shouting the loudest to change the industry you operate in. A good and easy start would be to make receiving a deposit without seeing the buyer completely illegal.

We all have to trust to a certain degree. For example, do you TRUST that your food has not been poisoned, or stored in safe conditions before you cook and eat it? We all have to TRUST others at some point, there are just so many dodgy people we need strong laws to protect us from.

I think there is normal trust and careless trust. Yes I trust my food if I buy from a reputable source and do however accept things can go wrong through no criminal intent and as a coeliac have been in the situation where a product I have bought is recalled due to containing gluten. However, would I buy meat from a facebook seller (private individual who apparently has left over lamb from his family take away) that is currently advertising on a local selling group at a bargain price? No I wouldn't as that is stupidity not trust. As for rules using facebook to buy or sell animals is breaking their terms and conditions , unscrupulous sellers will always push the limits of any rules so having more in place would just mean they ignore more. The buyers need to take some responsibility and not continue to buy this way and encourage the dodgy sellers to keep selling.

Likewise would I buy an animal on facebook knowing that the seller has already ignored the facebook safety rules , would I buy an animal without doing the most basic of visits including seeing the parent dogs, would I trust a breeder that allows me to do so without first checking my home - no I wouldn't as that would be beyond any normal trust.

Yes we have to trust but we don't have to be reckless and lose any common sense.

That old chestnut "common sense".

You, just like the rest of us is one mistake away from being ripped off. You may think that you're better than everyone else, but there is always that scam, that trap, that new fraud or that new term that was hidden in the small print which you will one day blissfully walk into, ever more likely as we grow older.

We all follow our hearts from time to time and there should be safeguards enshrined in law to ensure there is redress for the most vulnerable in society to protect us from these unscrupulous predators and it is not acceptable to just have the "they deserve all they get" attitude.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but by the time we see it, it's too late. Thank goodness we have consumer champions like Martin Lewis to help protect the vulnerable.

I don't see any problem with expecting people to use common sense, I think though that it is sad when people believe they can do what they want and take any risks as people like Martin Lewis will sort it all out for them.

Unfortunately this time there is nothing to sort out and no magic wand will make it better if the OP has been scammed.

I don't know how a consumer champion could hold that view.

As a society, we don't take IQ tests or vulnerability tests before we are allowed anywhere near the internet so it is up to the website providers to protect the vulnerable and take down predator posts asap and a strong and flexible law should be there as a back up. At the end of the day the OP is the prey, their only crime was to want to welcome a dog into their home and naivety. The seller, who must have been very convincing to get them to part with the deposit, is the predator. If it is a scam, banks need more powers to take the money back from the predator's account and pay back to the victim, even if there is an admin fee to put things right (to help encourage consumer responsibility). 

I would never ever condone people being able to believe they can do what they want and let others sort it out. MSE has been so successful because there are so many predators out there and MSE does a good job informing the public of their rights and they push for change where change is needed. 

One area where change is desperately needed is in the sale of pets on the internet; it is not fit for purpose and I think that if you did any research at all, many breeders, even reputable ones, would accept a deposit before seeing a buyer. It is common practice and the rules needs tightening to protect all parties - animals, consumers AND reputable breeders.

I think we have enough consumer laws that cover us very well, if not too much.

Sometimes people need to take responsibility for their own actions, rather then relying on others to bail them out when it goes wrong. Doesn't take long at all to do your research online.

However I do agree with your comments regarding the sale of pets. I would go th whole way and reintroduce the dog licence.

soolin

Fairplay1969 said:

shaun_from_Africa said:

Fairplay1969 said:

We all follow our hearts from time to time and there should be safeguards enshrined in law to ensure there is redress for the most vulnerable in society to protect us from these unscrupulous predators and it is not acceptable to just have the "they deserve all they get" attitude.

There is a safeguard but it's not enshrined in law. In fact, you mention this safeguard yourself.

Fairplay1969 said:

That old chestnut "common sense".

Ask yourself one simple question.
Would you give money to someone you had just met on the street, someone whose address you didn't know simply because they had a nice printed advert showing something for sale? Sending money via a bank transfer to a totally unknown name on Facebook is no different.

There are safeguards in place, safeguards such as following the guidelines and rules given by the advertising sites (things like no animals to be sold on Facebook) and ensuring that you pay via a method that provides some form of safety net (such as paypal) or only paying cash in a face to face transaction.

It is easy to see where you could be scammed like by the Car breakdown seller, Charity canvasser, ISP seller or energy provider with a stall outside a supermarket or on a High Street anywhere in the UK - are they genuine? How do you check?
It's easier to be scammed than people think.

Surely though people don’t sign up to providers or services via a stall in the high street? 

shaun_from_Africa

Fairplay1969 said:

It is easy to see where you could be scammed like by the Car breakdown seller, Charity canvasser, ISP seller or energy provider with a stall outside a supermarket or on a High Street anywhere in the UK - are they genuine? How do you check? 
It's easier to be scammed than people think.

How do you check?
Easy. Don't hand over any cash until you have done some basic investigation and if you can't do this, ask for advice from others before signing up or paying.
Even if you don't do any checks, at least if pay by a method that provides some form of protection so you have a good possibility of getting your money back.
Would you pay a car breakdown seller, ISP seller or energy provider that you met on the street in cash? because by sending money via a bank transfer to a totally anonymous person found on facebook, this is what you are basically doing.

There are plenty of consumer protections laws and guidelines in place but it's impossible to legislate for every single scenario which is why "That old chestnut "common sense" often comes into play and as long as people ignore both common sense and personal responsibility, they will continue to get ripped off.

[Deleted User]

OK, so we have established that the OP, who came on here for help and advice, has ended up being labelled an idiot and possibly even a criminal who has done gross misconduct.
I suppose I am an idiot as well for paying a deposit to a 5 star breeder who had a conflicting advert which says they have 5 stars and uphold the highest standards in breeding and then take my deposit and refuse to give it back when I realised they hadn't had basic health checks done on the parents?
I know both I and OP will not be coming on here again for help and advice, it is just a kangaroo court!

shaun_from_Africa

Fairplay1969 said:

OK, so we have established that the OP, who came on here for help and advice, has ended up being labelled an idiot and possibly even a criminal who has done gross misconduct.

The OP was without a doubt, naive but as far as I can tell, you are the only person to use the terms idiot and a criminal.
As for your not coming back. If you only want advice that backs up your opinion then not coming back is a wise decision.

The_Rainmaker

Fairplay1969 said:

OK, so we have established that the OP, who came on here for help and advice, has ended up being labelled an idiot and possibly even a criminal who has done gross misconduct.
I suppose I am an idiot as well for paying a deposit to a 5 star breeder who had a conflicting advert which says they have 5 stars and uphold the highest standards in breeding and then take my deposit and refuse to give it back when I realised they hadn't had basic health checks done on the parents?
I know both I and OP will not be coming on here again for help and advice, it is just a kangaroo court!

Well if my girl has pups (going to meet her new boyfriend next week) I will be a zero star breeder (as I wouldn't class myself as a breeder), she will have only one litter of pups, of which I will keep one.  With luck I will not need to advertise beyond my circle of rural friends to find good homes.

Grumpy_chap

soolin said:

Fairplay1969 said:

shaun_from_Africa said:

Fairplay1969 said:

We all follow our hearts from time to time and there should be safeguards enshrined in law to ensure there is redress for the most vulnerable in society to protect us from these unscrupulous predators and it is not acceptable to just have the "they deserve all they get" attitude.

There is a safeguard but it's not enshrined in law. In fact, you mention this safeguard yourself.

Fairplay1969 said:

That old chestnut "common sense".

Ask yourself one simple question.
Would you give money to someone you had just met on the street, someone whose address you didn't know simply because they had a nice printed advert showing something for sale? Sending money via a bank transfer to a totally unknown name on Facebook is no different.

There are safeguards in place, safeguards such as following the guidelines and rules given by the advertising sites (things like no animals to be sold on Facebook) and ensuring that you pay via a method that provides some form of safety net (such as paypal) or only paying cash in a face to face transaction.

It is easy to see where you could be scammed like by the Car breakdown seller, Charity canvasser, ISP seller or energy provider with a stall outside a supermarket or on a High Street anywhere in the UK - are they genuine? How do you check?
It's easier to be scammed than people think.

Surely though people don’t sign up to providers or services via a stall in the high street? 

I have in the past signed up to car breakdown and a credit card from a stall at the Motorway services.
I hope I would not do so again - it is easier now to do things with the internet, but for some the old ways still persist and the personal approach is fave.

George_Michael

Grumpy_chap said:

I have in the past signed up to car breakdown and a credit card from a stall at the Motorway services.
I hope I would not do so again - it is easier now to do things with the internet, but for some the old ways still persist and the personal approach is fave.

There's nothing wrong with signing up to such a service and paying with a credit card because:
1/ You have protection from the card issuer should the service turn out to be fraudulent and the person you have paid can be easily traced.
2/ You have a 14 day cooling off period for contracts signed away from the agents business premises.

born_again

hollydays said:

born_again said:

hollydays said:

You could have simply asked if that was what the Op meant

Again. Assume you are responding to me.....

Well given the OP has not come back. If they do and I'm wrong, so be it. 

I'm pretty sure you know I'm responding to you, so this is rather passive aggressive. If you cared to look back you will see I have an injury , actually as a result of what we'll call an 'accident, ' which makes typing hard at times, and used to account for why I edited my posts a lot .

Not aimed at being aggressive, as without a quote I'm only guessing.
I also have no idea of your personal history. I only look at the thread I'm responding too, or a post that someone has quoted/mentioned me.

So if I came across hard, then sorry, it is not how it was meant. Stay safe and there is nothing wrong with editing a post. We all do that...

born_again

Fairplay1969 said:

OK, so we have established that the OP, who came on here for help and advice, has ended up being labelled an idiot and possibly even a criminal who has done gross misconduct.
I suppose I am an idiot as well for paying a deposit to a 5 star breeder who had a conflicting advert which says they have 5 stars and uphold the highest standards in breeding and then take my deposit and refuse to give it back when I realised they hadn't had basic health checks done on the parents?
I know both I and OP will not be coming on here again for help and advice, it is just a kangaroo court!

Well if you paid a deposit before seeing any dogs.. Which is something that is very well published on sites where dog breeders advertise.
Then what other protection can be offered?
When we bought our to pups, We contacted the seller and arranged a time to view them (100 mile round trip) no mention of a deposit and if one had been mention then we would have gone else where. As it was it was a person in a private house who had breed off their own dog.
Only once both of us were happy was a deposit paid. No one else had any option on the pups till this was sorted. 
So as we say in banking. "It's all about due diligence" by both parties.
You simply can not rely on anyone else to pick up the pieces. 

Sadly from what is posted. Many people here are blunt and too the point. Which in many ways is understandable. 
Some might say this is harsh, but your deposit is nothing to a person I spoke to who had lost the value of their house to a scammer. And there was nothing anyone could do as they had ignored all the warnings they were given.