Trying to get a deposit back on a puppy

shaun_from_Africa

soolin said:

would I buy an animal without doing the most basic of visits including seeing the parent dogs, would I trust a breeder that allows me to do so without first checking my home - no I wouldn't as that would be beyond any normal trust.

The best breeder I've ever met was the one I got my current GSD from. 

She had a litter of pups advertised for sale but when I called her, they had all already been taken. She then told me that the mother was getting bullied by some other dogs that she owned and asked if I would be interested in taking her instead of a puppy.
I went over and had a look and decided straight away that the answer was yes.

Before I was able to take her, the owner visited my house (twice) and had a good look around and asked loads of questions.
Once she was happy, she brought the dog over.
She is a KC registered pedigree GSD with all the paperwork and the ex-owner could easily have sold her for an awful lot of money to someone who wanted to use her for breeding.
The charge to me? £0.00.  All she wanted was to make sure that her dog went to a good home.

[Deleted User]

soolin said:

Fairplay1969 said:

Thank you for your most helpful post 'The Rainmaker'.

The law needs firming up to protect us "clueless buyers", whose only crime is to TRUST their fellow human beings. If you see a 5 star breeder advert on an online pet shop, doesn't that give a sense of security that the transaction is all good? Like buying a new pair of jeans from a reputable online retailer, you know you can return them if they don't fit? Whatever way you look at it there is only one guilty party: the unscrupulous sellers.

If you are a genuine breeder, you should be shouting the loudest to change the industry you operate in. A good and easy start would be to make receiving a deposit without seeing the buyer completely illegal.

We all have to trust to a certain degree. For example, do you TRUST that your food has not been poisoned, or stored in safe conditions before you cook and eat it? We all have to TRUST others at some point, there are just so many dodgy people we need strong laws to protect us from.

I think there is normal trust and careless trust. Yes I trust my food if I buy from a reputable source and do however accept things can go wrong through no criminal intent and as a coeliac have been in the situation where a product I have bought is recalled due to containing gluten. However, would I buy meat from a facebook seller (private individual who apparently has left over lamb from his family take away) that is currently advertising on a local selling group at a bargain price? No I wouldn't as that is stupidity not trust. As for rules using facebook to buy or sell animals is breaking their terms and conditions , unscrupulous sellers will always push the limits of any rules so having more in place would just mean they ignore more. The buyers need to take some responsibility and not continue to buy this way and encourage the dodgy sellers to keep selling.

Likewise would I buy an animal on facebook knowing that the seller has already ignored the facebook safety rules , would I buy an animal without doing the most basic of visits including seeing the parent dogs, would I trust a breeder that allows me to do so without first checking my home - no I wouldn't as that would be beyond any normal trust.

Yes we have to trust but we don't have to be reckless and lose any common sense.

That old chestnut "common sense".

You, just like the rest of us is one mistake away from being ripped off. You may think that you're better than everyone else, but there is always that scam, that trap, that new fraud or that new term that was hidden in the small print which you will one day blissfully walk into, ever more likely as we grow older.

We all follow our hearts from time to time and there should be safeguards enshrined in law to ensure there is redress for the most vulnerable in society to protect us from these unscrupulous predators and it is not acceptable to just have the "they deserve all they get" attitude.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but by the time we see it, it's too late. Thank goodness we have consumer champions like Martin Lewis to help protect the vulnerable.

JamoLew

shaun_from_Africa said:

soolin said:

would I buy an animal without doing the most basic of visits including seeing the parent dogs, would I trust a breeder that allows me to do so without first checking my home - no I wouldn't as that would be beyond any normal trust.

The best breeder I've ever met was the one I got my current GSD from. 

She had a litter of pups advertised for sale but when I called her, they had all already been taken. She then told me that the mother was getting bullied by some other dogs that she owned and asked if I would be interested in taking her instead of a puppy.
I went over and had a look and decided straight away that the answer was yes.

Before I was able to take her, the owner visited my house (twice) and had a good look around and asked loads of questions.
Once she was happy, she brought the dog over.
She is a KC registered pedigree GSD with all the paperwork and the ex-owner could easily have sold her for an awful lot of money to someone who wanted to use her for breeding.
The charge to me? £0.00.  All she wanted was to make sure that her dog went to a good home.

Beautiful animal - that look on her face !!

soolin

Fairplay1969 said:

soolin said:

Fairplay1969 said:

Thank you for your most helpful post 'The Rainmaker'.

The law needs firming up to protect us "clueless buyers", whose only crime is to TRUST their fellow human beings. If you see a 5 star breeder advert on an online pet shop, doesn't that give a sense of security that the transaction is all good? Like buying a new pair of jeans from a reputable online retailer, you know you can return them if they don't fit? Whatever way you look at it there is only one guilty party: the unscrupulous sellers.

If you are a genuine breeder, you should be shouting the loudest to change the industry you operate in. A good and easy start would be to make receiving a deposit without seeing the buyer completely illegal.

We all have to trust to a certain degree. For example, do you TRUST that your food has not been poisoned, or stored in safe conditions before you cook and eat it? We all have to TRUST others at some point, there are just so many dodgy people we need strong laws to protect us from.

I think there is normal trust and careless trust. Yes I trust my food if I buy from a reputable source and do however accept things can go wrong through no criminal intent and as a coeliac have been in the situation where a product I have bought is recalled due to containing gluten. However, would I buy meat from a facebook seller (private individual who apparently has left over lamb from his family take away) that is currently advertising on a local selling group at a bargain price? No I wouldn't as that is stupidity not trust. As for rules using facebook to buy or sell animals is breaking their terms and conditions , unscrupulous sellers will always push the limits of any rules so having more in place would just mean they ignore more. The buyers need to take some responsibility and not continue to buy this way and encourage the dodgy sellers to keep selling.

Likewise would I buy an animal on facebook knowing that the seller has already ignored the facebook safety rules , would I buy an animal without doing the most basic of visits including seeing the parent dogs, would I trust a breeder that allows me to do so without first checking my home - no I wouldn't as that would be beyond any normal trust.

Yes we have to trust but we don't have to be reckless and lose any common sense.

That old chestnut "common sense".

You, just like the rest of us is one mistake away from being ripped off. You may think that you're better than everyone else, but there is always that scam, that trap, that new fraud or that new term that was hidden in the small print which you will one day blissfully walk into, ever more likely as we grow older.

We all follow our hearts from time to time and there should be safeguards enshrined in law to ensure there is redress for the most vulnerable in society to protect us from these unscrupulous predators and it is not acceptable to just have the "they deserve all they get" attitude.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but by the time we see it, it's too late. Thank goodness we have consumer champions like Martin Lewis to help protect the vulnerable.

I don't see any problem with expecting people to use common sense, I think though that it is sad when people believe they can do what they want and take any risks as people like Martin Lewis will sort it all out for them.

Unfortunately this time there is nothing to sort out and no magic wand will make it better if the OP has been scammed.

soolin

shaun_from_Africa said:

soolin said:

would I buy an animal without doing the most basic of visits including seeing the parent dogs, would I trust a breeder that allows me to do so without first checking my home - no I wouldn't as that would be beyond any normal trust.

The best breeder I've ever met was the one I got my current GSD from. 

She had a litter of pups advertised for sale but when I called her, they had all already been taken. She then told me that the mother was getting bullied by some other dogs that she owned and asked if I would be interested in taking her instead of a puppy.
I went over and had a look and decided straight away that the answer was yes.

Before I was able to take her, the owner visited my house (twice) and had a good look around and asked loads of questions.
Once she was happy, she brought the dog over.
She is a KC registered pedigree GSD with all the paperwork and the ex-owner could easily have sold her for an awful lot of money to someone who wanted to use her for breeding.
The charge to me? £0.00.  All she wanted was to make sure that her dog went to a good home.

That is the most gorgeous dog , it does show that there are some good pet owners and breeders out there and you have a wonderful companion who has a safe home.

shaun_from_Africa

Fairplay1969 said:

We all follow our hearts from time to time and there should be safeguards enshrined in law to ensure there is redress for the most vulnerable in society to protect us from these unscrupulous predators and it is not acceptable to just have the "they deserve all they get" attitude.

There is a safeguard but it's not enshrined in law. In fact, you mention this safeguard yourself.

Fairplay1969 said:

That old chestnut "common sense".

Ask yourself one simple question.
Would you give money to someone you had just met on the street, someone whose address you didn't know simply because they had a nice printed advert showing something for sale? Sending money via a bank transfer to a totally unknown name on Facebook is no different.

There are safeguards in place, safeguards such as following the guidelines and rules given by the advertising sites (things like no animals to be sold on Facebook) and ensuring that you pay via a method that provides some form of safety net (such as paypal) or only paying cash in a face to face transaction.

ANGLICANPAT

Crikey, talk about a thread going off on tangents , wow!     OP  who posted originally , I just wondered if it was at all a possibility that  you have  checked out the  sellers  bank details , but perhaps not looked at your own  if they are claiming  that you gave them the wrong details. With the new banking changes  that came in recently ,  you have to be so so so precise about have the exact  letters in your  'title'  that its really easy to have things turned down.  eg  A friend gave me his bank details to  pay him back for something . His account he gave me was  eg  John A  Harris   with the correct sort and  acc no.   It wasnt accepted , my NW bank said it was wrong !  Questioned it and they said to get back to my friend and find the exact name the bank  had recorded on his acc  . Changed it to Mr J A Harris  , and it was accepted .  Could this be a possibility  and  its put the other person off  and then hes let it slide ?   

[Deleted User]

soolin said:

Fairplay1969 said:

soolin said:

Fairplay1969 said:

Thank you for your most helpful post 'The Rainmaker'.

The law needs firming up to protect us "clueless buyers", whose only crime is to TRUST their fellow human beings. If you see a 5 star breeder advert on an online pet shop, doesn't that give a sense of security that the transaction is all good? Like buying a new pair of jeans from a reputable online retailer, you know you can return them if they don't fit? Whatever way you look at it there is only one guilty party: the unscrupulous sellers.

If you are a genuine breeder, you should be shouting the loudest to change the industry you operate in. A good and easy start would be to make receiving a deposit without seeing the buyer completely illegal.

We all have to trust to a certain degree. For example, do you TRUST that your food has not been poisoned, or stored in safe conditions before you cook and eat it? We all have to TRUST others at some point, there are just so many dodgy people we need strong laws to protect us from.

I think there is normal trust and careless trust. Yes I trust my food if I buy from a reputable source and do however accept things can go wrong through no criminal intent and as a coeliac have been in the situation where a product I have bought is recalled due to containing gluten. However, would I buy meat from a facebook seller (private individual who apparently has left over lamb from his family take away) that is currently advertising on a local selling group at a bargain price? No I wouldn't as that is stupidity not trust. As for rules using facebook to buy or sell animals is breaking their terms and conditions , unscrupulous sellers will always push the limits of any rules so having more in place would just mean they ignore more. The buyers need to take some responsibility and not continue to buy this way and encourage the dodgy sellers to keep selling.

Likewise would I buy an animal on facebook knowing that the seller has already ignored the facebook safety rules , would I buy an animal without doing the most basic of visits including seeing the parent dogs, would I trust a breeder that allows me to do so without first checking my home - no I wouldn't as that would be beyond any normal trust.

Yes we have to trust but we don't have to be reckless and lose any common sense.

That old chestnut "common sense".

You, just like the rest of us is one mistake away from being ripped off. You may think that you're better than everyone else, but there is always that scam, that trap, that new fraud or that new term that was hidden in the small print which you will one day blissfully walk into, ever more likely as we grow older.

We all follow our hearts from time to time and there should be safeguards enshrined in law to ensure there is redress for the most vulnerable in society to protect us from these unscrupulous predators and it is not acceptable to just have the "they deserve all they get" attitude.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but by the time we see it, it's too late. Thank goodness we have consumer champions like Martin Lewis to help protect the vulnerable.

I don't see any problem with expecting people to use common sense, I think though that it is sad when people believe they can do what they want and take any risks as people like Martin Lewis will sort it all out for them.

Unfortunately this time there is nothing to sort out and no magic wand will make it better if the OP has been scammed.

I don't know how a consumer champion could hold that view.

As a society, we don't take IQ tests or vulnerability tests before we are allowed anywhere near the internet so it is up to the website providers to protect the vulnerable and take down predator posts asap and a strong and flexible law should be there as a back up. At the end of the day the OP is the prey, their only crime was to want to welcome a dog into their home and naivety. The seller, who must have been very convincing to get them to part with the deposit, is the predator. If it is a scam, banks need more powers to take the money back from the predator's account and pay back to the victim, even if there is an admin fee to put things right (to help encourage consumer responsibility). 

I would never ever condone people being able to believe they can do what they want and let others sort it out. MSE has been so successful because there are so many predators out there and MSE does a good job informing the public of their rights and they push for change where change is needed. 

One area where change is desperately needed is in the sale of pets on the internet; it is not fit for purpose and I think that if you did any research at all, many breeders, even reputable ones, would accept a deposit before seeing a buyer. It is common practice and the rules needs tightening to protect all parties - animals, consumers AND reputable breeders.

[Deleted User]

shaun_from_Africa said:

Fairplay1969 said:

We all follow our hearts from time to time and there should be safeguards enshrined in law to ensure there is redress for the most vulnerable in society to protect us from these unscrupulous predators and it is not acceptable to just have the "they deserve all they get" attitude.

There is a safeguard but it's not enshrined in law. In fact, you mention this safeguard yourself.

Fairplay1969 said:

That old chestnut "common sense".

Ask yourself one simple question.
Would you give money to someone you had just met on the street, someone whose address you didn't know simply because they had a nice printed advert showing something for sale? Sending money via a bank transfer to a totally unknown name on Facebook is no different.

There are safeguards in place, safeguards such as following the guidelines and rules given by the advertising sites (things like no animals to be sold on Facebook) and ensuring that you pay via a method that provides some form of safety net (such as paypal) or only paying cash in a face to face transaction.

It is easy to see where you could be scammed like by the Car breakdown seller, Charity canvasser, ISP seller or energy provider with a stall outside a supermarket or on a High Street anywhere in the UK - are they genuine? How do you check?
It's easier to be scammed than people think.

powerful_Rogue

Fairplay1969 said:

shaun_from_Africa said:

Fairplay1969 said:

We all follow our hearts from time to time and there should be safeguards enshrined in law to ensure there is redress for the most vulnerable in society to protect us from these unscrupulous predators and it is not acceptable to just have the "they deserve all they get" attitude.

There is a safeguard but it's not enshrined in law. In fact, you mention this safeguard yourself.

Fairplay1969 said:

That old chestnut "common sense".

Ask yourself one simple question.
Would you give money to someone you had just met on the street, someone whose address you didn't know simply because they had a nice printed advert showing something for sale? Sending money via a bank transfer to a totally unknown name on Facebook is no different.

There are safeguards in place, safeguards such as following the guidelines and rules given by the advertising sites (things like no animals to be sold on Facebook) and ensuring that you pay via a method that provides some form of safety net (such as paypal) or only paying cash in a face to face transaction.

It is easy to see where you could be scammed like by the Car breakdown seller, Charity canvasser, ISP seller or energy provider with a stall outside a supermarket or on a High Street anywhere in the UK - are they genuine? How do you check?
It's easier to be scammed than people think.

You just don't sign up or give your details to any of those kind of sellers. Go home to their official website and sign up there. Chances are you might find a better deal and also get some cashback.