Message from ABTA A disgrace.

Pollycat

MaebyJade said:

Pollycat said:

bradders1983 said:

That is very naughty.

Westin said:

Agree. If that is what they sent out and these the instructions they gave to customers then I think they should be held accountable for offering the credit/refund as indicated.

This is what I said on the previous page.

It seems they are refunding some people from the copy of a different email.

What is the £1639.00 and the £14188.00?

I think this thread is getting very confusing as people are posting what somebody else has posted somewhere else.

I think the 'cancel' email is somewhat confusing as it mentions both cancellation and postponement.

Voyage Privee refer to 'postponement or cancellation' with their suppliers but then go on to say they are putting 'exceptional postponement conditions' in place for their customers with near departures.

And invite customers to use the 'cancel my booking' facility to do so.

I don't think it's a very clear email at all.

Maybe it's time to act on this:

SevenOfNine said:

Interestingly, ABTA have also removed the "we won't investigate complaints against our member regarding coronavirus", so presumably anyone who wants to complain now.....can!

I used the Voyage Prive example to highlight how some companies are behaving unethically and using the current situation to rip off customers. A lot of travel companies are pleading for mercy when it comes to genuine refunds but as shown some are able to refund those customers that they have the upper hand on from a T&Cs perspective. ABTA's guidelines are only shielding these companies from refunding everyone else on time, without really dealing with the unscrupulous behaviours some are resorting to. ABTA has lost control.

The company refunded £1639.00 but went on to say "that is why you are charged £14,188.00".

I'm not sure I'd consider it a result if I was refunded just over £1.5k but charged £14k.

MaebyJade

Pollycat said:

The company refunded £1639.00 but went on to say "that is why you are charged £14,188.00".

I'm not sure I'd consider it a result if I was refunded just over £1.5k but charged £14k.

I think you've misunderstood my point. As highlighted by this examples, travel companies aren't as cash strapped as they are claiming to be. They've processed a cash refund (albeit a fraction of what the customer has paid) because they are within their right to do so, as it was the customer that cancelled their own holiday. The minute the refund is made then the contractual agreement between the two ends.

In this instance they are saying the T&Cs are final. However, they are ignoring those same T&Cs on occasions where they've cancelled a holiday and are supposed to give full cash refunds. 

Pollycat

MaebyJade said:

Pollycat said:

The company refunded £1639.00 but went on to say "that is why you are charged £14,188.00".

I'm not sure I'd consider it a result if I was refunded just over £1.5k but charged £14k.

I think you've misunderstood my point. As highlighted by this examples, travel companies aren't as cash strapped as they are claiming to be. They've processed a cash refund (albeit a fraction of what the customer has paid) because they are within their right to do so, as it was the customer that cancelled their own holiday. The minute the refund is made then the contractual agreement between the two ends.

In this instance they are saying the T&Cs are final. However, they are ignoring those same T&Cs on occasions where they've cancelled a holiday and are supposed to give full cash refunds. 

Do you have timelines for the refunds these companies have made (because the customer has cancelled the contract)  and the refunds that have not been forthcoming (because the company have cancelled the holiday)?

Fairypop

Sorry I went AWOL yes - you've found where the date disappeared!

Have you all signed the petition on Change.org - search for right to refund, started by Kane Pirie.
Can't post link 

Pollycat

Fairypop said:

Sorry I went AWOL yes - you've found where the date disappeared!

Have you all signed the petition on Change.org - search for right to refund, started by Kane Pirie.
Can't post link 

Here's the link:

https://www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-give-customers-their-due-cash-refunds-on-coronavirus-cancelled-holidays?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=9a57afe0-78f5-11ea-aaa8-232406c64ded

I wonder how Mr Kane Pirie is handling refunds to customers of his company?

There's absolutely no mention of Coronavirus and refunds on his company website.

Alan_Bowen

Pollycat, that may be an indication of how many bookings he had!
My understanding on Friday was that Mr Pirie had a 'Road to Damascus' moment last week and now supports ABTA's stance, however, we may be in danger of losing sight of the important issues here.
If any company seeks to mislead customers into cancelling holidays that could not be provided anyway simply to avoid offering refunds or credit, they deserve to suffer appropriate legal action by the customer to recover their losses and severe action by ABTA for bringing the association into disrepute. ABTA's own CEO said publicly last week on BBC Breakfast that he would ensure ABTA members paid refunds when the vouchers expired which as far as I know was to be 31st July.
Not every company is a member, and many members protect their bookings through the CAA ATOL scheme, they have different dates for renewing protection which I have previously discussed. No one should accept a voucher that expires beyond 31 March next year as no one can know whether an ATOL licence which is valid now will be renewed on that date. 
It seems very unlikely that much if any, travel will get going before July 31st so I can understand concerns that even by the end of July companies will have sufficient funds to repay but there are bookings being made for next years and even for cruises in 2022 and these deposits are what companies need to give customers their money back. Airlines will hopefully be flying by then and giving money back, those that are offering refunds, such as Virgin Atlantic are suggesting it will be 90 days before they can refund so that would just creep in before the end of July.
The travel industry is entirely dependent on customers trusting the companies they deal with, all of us, customers and agents, have learned a lot in the last few weeks, much of it will make us consider who we do business with in future. Anyone who cheats deserves to be hung out to dry but the decent hardworking staff who are currently working for nothing in many cases, equally deserve respect and a recognition that no one wants to be in a position of not offering refunds immediately when they are due.

Pollycat

Alan_Bowen said:

Pollycat, that may be an indication of how many bookings he had!
My understanding on Friday was that Mr Pirie had a 'Road to Damascus' moment last week and now supports ABTA's stance, however, we may be in danger of losing sight of the important issues here.
If any company seeks to mislead customers into cancelling holidays that could not be provided anyway simply to avoid offering refunds or credit, they deserve to suffer appropriate legal action by the customer to recover their losses and severe action by ABTA for bringing the association into disrepute. ABTA's own CEO said publicly last week on BBC Breakfast that he would ensure ABTA members paid refunds when the vouchers expired which as far as I know was to be 31st July.
Not every company is a member, and many members protect their bookings through the CAA ATOL scheme, they have different dates for renewing protection which I have previously discussed. No one should accept a voucher that expires beyond 31 March next year as no one can know whether an ATOL licence which is valid now will be renewed on that date. 
It seems very unlikely that much if any, travel will get going before July 31st so I can understand concerns that even by the end of July companies will have sufficient funds to repay but there are bookings being made for next years and even for cruises in 2022 and these deposits are what companies need to give customers their money back. Airlines will hopefully be flying by then and giving money back, those that are offering refunds, such as Virgin Atlantic are suggesting it will be 90 days before they can refund so that would just creep in before the end of July.
The travel industry is entirely dependent on customers trusting the companies they deal with, all of us, customers and agents, have learned a lot in the last few weeks, much of it will make us consider who we do business with in future. Anyone who cheats deserves to be hung out to dry but the decent hardworking staff who are currently working for nothing in many cases, equally deserve respect and a recognition that no one wants to be in a position of not offering refunds immediately when they are due.

I'm always suspicious of a poacher turned gamekeeper.

Re the bit in bold:

I agree. I posted on 13th April that it was shocking.

I also commented earlier on the Voyage Privee email that mentioned 'postponement' and 'cancellation' somewhat ambiguously.

Here ^^^^ VP talk about 'booking cancellation and refund' then go on to talk about 'postponement is subject to general T&Cs'. That is for a specific case.

Here ^^^^ they also talk about postponement and cancellation.

They talk about postponement and then immediately go on to advise the method 'to proceed' by going into 'manage your booking' and 'cancel my booking'.

I'm not even convinced that VP appreciate the difference in the 2 terms.

If they really are encouraging customers to cancel by mentioning postponement, then I agree that this is appalling and needs to be addressed.

There is actually a separate thread about Voyage Privee discussing this very thing:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77042678/#Comment_77042678

I have 2 holidays booked - none with VP but both with leading TOs - one is fully paid for with departure in mid June, the other I've paid a deposit on and the balance is due 3rd week in June.

I've not contacted either of the 2 companies. I know they are busy with customers departing much earlier than I am.

I have considered deferring - or maybe I should say postponing but definitely not cancelling - my first holiday for a full year but the exact same holiday was 20% more expensive in 2021 and has since increased significantly since I first considered that.

I'm currently sat on the fence.

zagfles

I'm just glad I the only package holidays I book are last minute cheapies for a few hundred. I think all this might prompt people to think a bit more about the type of holiday they go on, and how much the supposed value of ABTA/ATOL protection is really worth. The amount some people seem to spend on packages defies belief, and usually paid upfront too.

MaebyJade

zagfles said:

I'm just glad I the only package holidays I book are last minute cheapies for a few hundred. I think all this might prompt people to think a bit more about the type of holiday they go on, and how much the supposed value of ABTA/ATOL protection is really worth. The amount some people seem to spend on packages defies belief, and usually paid upfront too.

I think this is will be the biggest outcome out of all of this. Consumer behaviour will change, in that ABTA/ATOL protection doesn't hold as much weight/trust from a consumer point of view. Package travel companies will really struggle to re-gain the trust of consumers, who will instead book direct with providers, using credit cards for protection. 

Aylesbury_Duck

MaebyJade said:

zagfles said:

I'm just glad I the only package holidays I book are last minute cheapies for a few hundred. I think all this might prompt people to think a bit more about the type of holiday they go on, and how much the supposed value of ABTA/ATOL protection is really worth. The amount some people seem to spend on packages defies belief, and usually paid upfront too.

I think this is will be the biggest outcome out of all of this. Consumer behaviour will change, in that ABTA/ATOL protection doesn't hold as much weight/trust from a consumer point of view. Package travel companies will really struggle to re-gain the trust of consumers, who will instead book direct with providers, using credit cards for protection. 

I disagree.  That might be the short term reaction but as soon as people can save £10 p.p. on their holiday, they'll be off to Bob's Travel Shed all over again.  We had all this with the volcano situation a few years ago and people soon went back to scouring the web for "bargains".  Same with things like airport parking.  Problems with off-site "companies" taking your keys and abandoning your car in a field for a week are rife, yet people will still use them to save a tenner on airport parking.