Message from ABTA A disgrace.

zagfles

Aylesbury_Duck said:

MaebyJade said:

zagfles said:

I'm just glad I the only package holidays I book are last minute cheapies for a few hundred. I think all this might prompt people to think a bit more about the type of holiday they go on, and how much the supposed value of ABTA/ATOL protection is really worth. The amount some people seem to spend on packages defies belief, and usually paid upfront too.

I think this is will be the biggest outcome out of all of this. Consumer behaviour will change, in that ABTA/ATOL protection doesn't hold as much weight/trust from a consumer point of view. Package travel companies will really struggle to re-gain the trust of consumers, who will instead book direct with providers, using credit cards for protection. 

I disagree.  That might be the short term reaction but as soon as people can save £10 p.p. on their holiday, they'll be off to Bob's Travel Shed all over again.  We had all this with the volcano situation a few years ago and people soon went back to scouring the web for "bargains".  Same with things like airport parking.  Problems with off-site "companies" taking your keys and abandoning your car in a field for a week are rife, yet people will still use them to save a tenner on airport parking.

The issue here doesn't seem to be be people who've got a "bargain", it appears to be people who've paid a ridiculous amount for a holiday - eg the £14k mentioned above! Unless it was for 20 people I guess!

happyandcontented

zagfles said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

MaebyJade said:

zagfles said:

I'm just glad I the only package holidays I book are last minute cheapies for a few hundred. I think all this might prompt people to think a bit more about the type of holiday they go on, and how much the supposed value of ABTA/ATOL protection is really worth. The amount some people seem to spend on packages defies belief, and usually paid upfront too.

I think this is will be the biggest outcome out of all of this. Consumer behaviour will change, in that ABTA/ATOL protection doesn't hold as much weight/trust from a consumer point of view. Package travel companies will really struggle to re-gain the trust of consumers, who will instead book direct with providers, using credit cards for protection. 

I disagree.  That might be the short term reaction but as soon as people can save £10 p.p. on their holiday, they'll be off to Bob's Travel Shed all over again.  We had all this with the volcano situation a few years ago and people soon went back to scouring the web for "bargains".  Same with things like airport parking.  Problems with off-site "companies" taking your keys and abandoning your car in a field for a week are rife, yet people will still use them to save a tenner on airport parking.

The issue here doesn't seem to be be people who've got a "bargain", it appears to be people who've paid a ridiculous amount for a holiday - eg the £14k mentioned above! Unless it was for 20 people I guess!

I suppose it depends on your perspective. 14k is a lot of money, but it could be for a family of 5 for 2 weeks all-inclusive,  a long cruise, or any other scenario where a spend of 2/3k pp would not be unusual.
If holidays are not your thing then it might seem excessive, but for many, that is the norm.

zagfles

happyandcontented said:

zagfles said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

MaebyJade said:

zagfles said:

I'm just glad I the only package holidays I book are last minute cheapies for a few hundred. I think all this might prompt people to think a bit more about the type of holiday they go on, and how much the supposed value of ABTA/ATOL protection is really worth. The amount some people seem to spend on packages defies belief, and usually paid upfront too.

I think this is will be the biggest outcome out of all of this. Consumer behaviour will change, in that ABTA/ATOL protection doesn't hold as much weight/trust from a consumer point of view. Package travel companies will really struggle to re-gain the trust of consumers, who will instead book direct with providers, using credit cards for protection. 

I disagree.  That might be the short term reaction but as soon as people can save £10 p.p. on their holiday, they'll be off to Bob's Travel Shed all over again.  We had all this with the volcano situation a few years ago and people soon went back to scouring the web for "bargains".  Same with things like airport parking.  Problems with off-site "companies" taking your keys and abandoning your car in a field for a week are rife, yet people will still use them to save a tenner on airport parking.

The issue here doesn't seem to be be people who've got a "bargain", it appears to be people who've paid a ridiculous amount for a holiday - eg the £14k mentioned above! Unless it was for 20 people I guess!

I suppose it depends on your perspective. 14k is a lot of money, but it could be for a family of 5 for 2 weeks all-inclusive,  a long cruise, or any other scenario where a spend of 2/3k pp would not be unusual.
If holidays are not your thing then it might seem excessive, but for many, that is the norm.

Holidays are very much "my thing"...I went on 5 foreign holidays last year, 11 countries, 3 continents and spent around half that, on everything for all of us - two family holidays with 4 of us, two just me and wife, and one on my own. Would never dream of spending £14k on a single holiday even for 4 of us!

happyandcontented

zagfles said:

happyandcontented said:

zagfles said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

MaebyJade said:

zagfles said:

I'm just glad I the only package holidays I book are last minute cheapies for a few hundred. I think all this might prompt people to think a bit more about the type of holiday they go on, and how much the supposed value of ABTA/ATOL protection is really worth. The amount some people seem to spend on packages defies belief, and usually paid upfront too.

I think this is will be the biggest outcome out of all of this. Consumer behaviour will change, in that ABTA/ATOL protection doesn't hold as much weight/trust from a consumer point of view. Package travel companies will really struggle to re-gain the trust of consumers, who will instead book direct with providers, using credit cards for protection. 

I disagree.  That might be the short term reaction but as soon as people can save £10 p.p. on their holiday, they'll be off to Bob's Travel Shed all over again.  We had all this with the volcano situation a few years ago and people soon went back to scouring the web for "bargains".  Same with things like airport parking.  Problems with off-site "companies" taking your keys and abandoning your car in a field for a week are rife, yet people will still use them to save a tenner on airport parking.

The issue here doesn't seem to be be people who've got a "bargain", it appears to be people who've paid a ridiculous amount for a holiday - eg the £14k mentioned above! Unless it was for 20 people I guess!

I suppose it depends on your perspective. 14k is a lot of money, but it could be for a family of 5 for 2 weeks all-inclusive,  a long cruise, or any other scenario where a spend of 2/3k pp would not be unusual.
If holidays are not your thing then it might seem excessive, but for many, that is the norm.

Holidays are very much "my thing"...I went on 5 foreign holidays last year, 11 countries, 3 continents and spent around half that, on everything for all of us - two family holidays with 4 of us, two just me and wife, and one on my own. Would never dream of spending £14k on a single holiday even for 4 of us!

My point is that people like different types and styles of holiday and so the prices will vary.

If, for example, if you go to Florida with a family the Disney tickets alone can cost thousands, add to that flights in summer holidays, and a hotel or villa for 2/3 weeks and the price soon mounts up. For many, that is the holiday of a lifetime. Friends of ours visited Australia, New Zealand, and Singapore for 6 weeks last year, I doubt that they had much change from 14k when everything was costed in.

Whilst we are working and therefore constrained by available time off we budget 10k a year for travel for the two of us, (we like luxury but do shop around for the best prices) that budget will rise when we retire and do more long haul destinations. However, we rarely buy package holidays as we prefer to deal direct and sort our own flights out, this time for the first time in many years, we did buy a package as it was much cheaper than going direct and now we are trying to rebook if possible but that is proving quite difficult.

zagfles

happyandcontented said:

zagfles said:

happyandcontented said:

zagfles said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

MaebyJade said:

zagfles said:

I'm just glad I the only package holidays I book are last minute cheapies for a few hundred. I think all this might prompt people to think a bit more about the type of holiday they go on, and how much the supposed value of ABTA/ATOL protection is really worth. The amount some people seem to spend on packages defies belief, and usually paid upfront too.

I think this is will be the biggest outcome out of all of this. Consumer behaviour will change, in that ABTA/ATOL protection doesn't hold as much weight/trust from a consumer point of view. Package travel companies will really struggle to re-gain the trust of consumers, who will instead book direct with providers, using credit cards for protection. 

I disagree.  That might be the short term reaction but as soon as people can save £10 p.p. on their holiday, they'll be off to Bob's Travel Shed all over again.  We had all this with the volcano situation a few years ago and people soon went back to scouring the web for "bargains".  Same with things like airport parking.  Problems with off-site "companies" taking your keys and abandoning your car in a field for a week are rife, yet people will still use them to save a tenner on airport parking.

The issue here doesn't seem to be be people who've got a "bargain", it appears to be people who've paid a ridiculous amount for a holiday - eg the £14k mentioned above! Unless it was for 20 people I guess!

I suppose it depends on your perspective. 14k is a lot of money, but it could be for a family of 5 for 2 weeks all-inclusive,  a long cruise, or any other scenario where a spend of 2/3k pp would not be unusual.
If holidays are not your thing then it might seem excessive, but for many, that is the norm.

Holidays are very much "my thing"...I went on 5 foreign holidays last year, 11 countries, 3 continents and spent around half that, on everything for all of us - two family holidays with 4 of us, two just me and wife, and one on my own. Would never dream of spending £14k on a single holiday even for 4 of us!

My point is that people like different types and styles of holiday and so the prices will vary.

If, for example, if you go to Florida with a family the Disney tickets alone can cost thousands, add to that flights in summer holidays, and a hotel or villa for 2/3 weeks and the price soon mounts up. For many, that is the holiday of a lifetime. Friends of ours visited Australia, New Zealand, and Singapore for 6 weeks last year, I doubt that they had much change from 14k when everything was costed in.

Whilst we are working and therefore constrained by available time off we budget 10k a year for travel for the two of us, (we like luxury but do shop around for the best prices) that budget will rise when we retire and do more long haul destinations. However, we rarely buy package holidays as we prefer to deal direct and sort our own flights out, this time for the first time in many years, we did buy a package as it was much cheaper than going direct and now we are trying to rebook if possible but that is proving quite difficult.

Well, quite, but the whole point of this sub-discussion is that it might change the way people book holidays - rather than pay a very large sum upfront for everything, thinking it will all be covered by ABTA/ATOL/insurance, they might look more at paying for things as they go, not committing to such a large upfront spend.

For instance when we went to Florida, we booked nothing ahead other than the flights, and a car which was probably cancellable, and both were booked only a month ahead. We went off peak so didn't book any accomodation, just turned up at motels, paying around $30 a night or less (mind this was many years ago!).

When we went to NZ a few years ago, we booked flights that were cancellable (for a small'ish fee), they were actually the cheapest flight available at the time, some non cancellable ones were more expensive. Didn't book any accomodation in advance although we were staying with friends first couple of nights, otherwise would have prob booked a couple of nights. We had a good idea where we were going to go but kept our options open, and it was interesting watching the accomodation prices go down the nearer to the date you booked! Obviously such a strategy wouldn't work at peak times.

Same with other trips, SE Asia, Australia, US, all over Europe, I do sometimes book non cancellable accomodation & trips in advance, and usually flights esp on budget airlines, but never pay so much that it would be a serious issue if something stopped me going.

People live under the illusion that insurance, or ABTA/ATOL, will save you if you can't go for whatever reason, but they won't protect you in all circumstances, the best protection is not having so much upfront committment. Which is what I think people will start realising, and that was the point I was trying to make in this subthread.

Loanranger21

I have accepted a voucher for a holiday due to take place in May. It is with a charitable organisation and we have decided that we don't want them to go under by people demanding their rights. In our case, holidays are not essential but discretionary purchases.  I know the risks involved by accepting a voucher but this is our choice. 

43722

Loanranger21 said:

I have accepted a voucher for a holiday due to take place in May. It is with a charitable organisation and we have decided that we don't want them to go under by people demanding their rights. In our case, holidays are not essential but discretionary purchases.  I know the risks involved by accepting a voucher but this is our choice. 

That's all fine if it works for you. The opposite should also operate too. Those who want and are legally due a refund should be able to access it without obstacles being placed in way by some unscrupulous traders.

SevenOfNine

zagfles - good for you on your choice of holiday arrangements, you do a lot on a budget........YOUR budget!

Personally, I wouldn't entertain your style of holiday, I like mine & when this is all done & dusted I'll continue to spend my own money, however much, however often, & wherever I like.  We've travelled the world, spent a lot of money & may well continue to do so (assuming age & health issues allow). I don't book specifically for ABTA/ATOL cover,  I use a known tour operator out of sheer laziness (TUI, Hayes & Jarvis, Kuoni, & numerous others, whoever sells what I want). Fussy about where we stay, fussy about where we sit in an aircraft, like things organised, perhaps even a little regimented & simply can't be bothered to organise it myself.  I've no plans to stop doing that, but may refer to some of the holiday lists of companies who have been more proactive during this unprecedented 'event', but we'll see.

I'd happily spend £14k on a family holiday for the 2 of us plus our son, dil & 2 grandsons, going somewhere we all want to go, staying in the type of accommodation WE like to stay in & seated in the plane where WE like to sit - & the other 4 will tag along on the latter 2 choices, happy in the knowledge that we're paying for it.

You realise that just as you see someones £14k holiday choice as being a somewhat outrageous amount to spend, there are many (but rarely on travel forums) who would say the same about what you spend, as cheap as that might be for what you get done.  Those who choose camping in UK maybe, on a shoestring yet having a great time. 

The point being - each to their own.  Spend a little, spend a lot, the only thing we've NEVER done is to spend money we have not got, if we cannot afford to pay for it then we cannot afford to have it.

zagfles

SevenOfNine said:

zagfles - good for you on your choice of holiday arrangements, you do a lot on a budget........YOUR budget!

Personally, I wouldn't entertain your style of holiday, I like mine & when this is all done & dusted I'll continue to spend my own money, however much, however often, & wherever I like.  We've travelled the world, spent a lot of money & may well continue to do so (assuming age & health issues allow). I don't book specifically for ABTA/ATOL cover,  I use a known tour operator out of sheer laziness (TUI, Hayes & Jarvis, Kuoni, & numerous others, whoever sells what I want). Fussy about where we stay, fussy about where we sit in an aircraft, like things organised, perhaps even a little regimented & simply can't be bothered to organise it myself.  I've no plans to stop doing that, but may refer to some of the holiday lists of companies who have been more proactive during this unprecedented 'event', but we'll see.

I'd happily spend £14k on a family holiday for the 2 of us plus our son, dil & 2 grandsons, going somewhere we all want to go, staying in the type of accommodation WE like to stay in & seated in the plane where WE like to sit - & the other 4 will tag along on the latter 2 choices, happy in the knowledge that we're paying for it.

You realise that just as you see someones £14k holiday choice as being a somewhat outrageous amount to spend, there are many (but rarely on travel forums) who would say the same about what you spend, as cheap as that might be for what you get done.  Those who choose camping in UK maybe, on a shoestring yet having a great time. 

The point being - each to their own.  Spend a little, spend a lot, the only thing we've NEVER done is to spend money we have not got, if we cannot afford to pay for it then we cannot afford to have it.

Indeed - but the point isn't how much is spent, rather how much is committed up front that I think may become as issue with some people. Not all clearly.

For instance when we went to NZ for a month, we ended up spending around £9k total for 4 of us. A ridiculously large amount (for me), but we did some expensive stuff like skydiving, ski-ing, hobbiton (yes that is really expensive!).

However had the trip been cancelled a few days before, for whatever reason, even if not covered by insurance, I would have been no more than a couple of hundred out of pocket. That's what I think might change, for some people. Not the level of spending, but the committment far ahead to spending. Even people who only book packages might look to book them later/last minute rather than commit 6 months or a year ahead.

happyandcontented

I can see your point, but many accommodations get booked up well in advance and if you want to stay there you have to book ahead.
Like the poster above, I wouldn't be willing to arrive and just take what was available, I research exactly where I want to stay, in what type of room/suite and what amenities I require. I book in advance to ensure I get it.
Insurance is for the unforeseen and if it happens you deal with it, just as we are doing now. I would much rather do that and know I have what I want than go on spec and get what is left. Each to their own.