Bed blocking 12 February 2020 at 7:03AM in Over 50s MoneySaving 47 replies 2.9K views

MoneySeeker1

Both parents are very ill and very elderly. One of them is in hospital and has been for a couple of weeks and is basically "bed-blocking". Hospital parent has been having carers coming in at home 3 times a day (reasonable care firm for reasonable length visits) for months now to deal with them and the hospital says a higher degree of care is now needed for them, but not giving much indication as to how to proceed. 

The parents are having to pay for these carers that are already coming in from their savings and have been doing so for months, but myself and the relative with POA have decreed my parents are to keep having these carers in and they are continuing to go in whilst parent still in house is on their own (in order to keep an eye on them).

So that's current position - one parent bedblocking and the other still having those carers going in for them and online shopping done for them and the money for this coming from their savings. They only have pretty modest means - a pretty standard 3 bedroom house and their savings must be heading down close to the allowed limit (think that's about £14,000 each???) by now.

The hospital is pushing to get the bedblocking one outs and wants them in a "nursing home" (not care home) now. We all think the Bedblocker Parent can't have that much longer to live now (90s/very ill physically/vascular dementia). I've said I will accept them staying in the hospital till Day Zero (ie when they die), I will accept them being transferred to a small community hospital, I believe they should go into the Hospice now. Hospital just wants them Out and doesn't seem to care if it's into a bad "nursing home", doesn't seem to care if there is probably not enough savings left over the £28,000 or so ??? they are allowed to keep. 

Now what? Is the hospital likely to shove Bedblocker Parent out into a nursing home anyway, whether we approve of the one they have in mind or no? (I've inspected ones in their town in case and there is literally only one I would accept, as it ticks all the boxes and is clearly a good home. The other one possible is awful and I would not accept it). 

 1. If they did shove Bedblocker Parent out into a nursing home where would the money would come from to pay for it, as the State can't "grab the house", as the other parent still needs it to live in?

2. Could the State forcibly shove Bedblocker Parent into a nursing home other than the only one good enough for them (ie into the bad one or into one not local to other parent)?

At the moment we seem to be in impasse. I won't accept any nursing home other than the Good Local One. Hospital is being pushy. I don't see where the money would come from for a nursing home anyway, whilst the other parent needs the house the State would want to grab in order to live in it. Obviously, I wouldnt accept the State shoving other parent out of their home so they could "grab" - as they would then be homeless.

There is no question of me paying anything towards a nursing home, as I can't afford it (I'm still struggling financially myself). I don't know the financial position of relative with POA, but I've not noted them offering to pay anything towards it and know they wouldn't use their own money anyway for this.

Pollycat

Isn't your local Adult Social Care involved?

When my Dad was diagnosed with dementia, I phoned the relevant department within  our County Council and they were good.

Ditto with my Mum.

MoneySeeker1

Unsure on that - as the situation is that the relative with POA is keeping me very much in the dark, despite repeated requests that I should know as much as they do and will be making my 50% share of the decision-making. That's part of what is making the situation difficult. Hence I'm having to find out how things "should be"/work out what the best options are for my bedblocking parent and then say "I know what the options are and the best one for Bedblocker Parent is x and I will therefore agree to x, but wouldnt agree to y" for instance.

Not an easy situation.

As far as I can work out, I have gathered Home Parent can't be thrown out of their home to have it grabbed and sold whilst they still need it as their home. But I'm experiencing a lot of pressure from the Hospital (I've had a very offhand social worker being downright rude/unhelpful to me etc). 

From what I can make out there is a "battle" going on between the different parts of the State. Their own doctor is saying "Can't come home. Not fit enough to do so, even with those carers going in regularly etc. If they go home they will just have another accident and bounce in and out of hospital" and that sounds pretty likely scenario to me.

 Social work lot seem to be saying "Get him out. Someone will have to pay somehow (and making no mention of where this payment would come from)" and being nasty/pushy to me.

Hospital doctor is kind/seems to understand/want patients welfare looked after and telling me to contact her if I am concerned about parents' health.

POA relative is being "closed/closed/refusing to tell me anything" and hence why I'm keeping them fully-informed as far as I am concerned (proof kept in writing) and having to work along "I'll tell POA relative what I will accept/what I won't accept" etc lines. For instance, I've told POA relative (in writing) I would accept the good nursing home if need be and I wouldn't accept the bad nursing home.

 I don't know whether their Council has been involved - and think there's probably a good chance they've been told by Awful Social Worker that "You've got to pay for a nursing home, as that's the only way it's going to happen, and you'll just have to grab their house later to fund it" and I'd be willing to bet their Council is also "in the boxing ring" and fighting not to have to loan out money to pay until Other Parent dies or has to go into a home themselves (at which point they'd grab the house).

 So I expect the different arms of the State are all fighting with each other to "pass the buck", but I'm not being told this and I don't know/don't think POA relative is being told this. It feels like there is a lot of conflict going on behind the scenes and then I have POA relative keeping me in the dark and I'm just having to hope that when I make decisions for parents' best interests that POA relative isn't making different ones and then we'd have our own conflict going on (over and above the "Tell me whats what", stonewall response, "Tell me whats what", stonewall response that we've got).

Pollycat

MoneySeeker1 said:

Unsure on that - as the situation is that the relative with POA is keeping me very much in the dark, despite repeated requests that I should know as much as they do and will be making my 50% share of the decision-making. That's part of what is making the situation difficult. Hence I'm having to find out how things "should be"/work out what the best options are for my bedblocking parent and then say "I know what the options are and the best one for Bedblocker Parent is x and I will therefore agree to x, but wouldnt agree to y" for instance.

Not an easy situation.

As far as I can work out, I have gathered Home Parent can't be thrown out of their home to have it grabbed and sold whilst they still need it as their home. But I'm experiencing a lot of pressure from the Hospital (I've had a very offhand social worker being downright rude/unhelpful to me etc). 

From what I can make out there is a "battle" going on between the different parts of the State. Their own doctor is saying "Can't come home. Not fit enough to do so, even with those carers going in regularly etc. If they go home they will just have another accident and bounce in and out of hospital" and that sounds pretty likely scenario to me.

 Social work lot seem to be saying "Get him out. Someone will have to pay somehow (and making no mention of where this payment would come from)" and being nasty/pushy to me.

Hospital doctor is kind/seems to understand/want patients welfare looked after and telling me to contact her if I am concerned about parents' health.

POA relative is being "closed/closed/refusing to tell me anything" and hence why I'm keeping them fully-informed as far as I am concerned (proof kept in writing) and having to work along "I'll tell POA relative what I will accept/what I won't accept" etc lines. For instance, I've told POA relative (in writing) I would accept the good nursing home if need be and I wouldn't accept the bad nursing home.

 I don't know whether their Council has been involved - and think there's probably a good chance they've been told by Awful Social Worker that "You've got to pay for a nursing home, as that's the only way it's going to happen, and you'll just have to grab their house later to fund it" and I'd be willing to bet their Council is also "in the boxing ring" and fighting not to have to loan out money to pay until Other Parent dies or has to go into a home themselves (at which point they'd grab the house).

 So I expect the different arms of the State are all fighting with each other to "pass the buck", but I'm not being told this and I don't know/don't think POA relative is being told this. It feels like there is a lot of conflict going on behind the scenes and then I have POA relative keeping me in the dark and I'm just having to hope that when I make decisions for parents' best interests that POA relative isn't making different ones and then we'd have our own conflict going on (over and above the "Tell me whats what", stonewall response, "Tell me whats what", stonewall response that we've got).

It's hard to comment further when you are being kept at arms-length by the person your parent chose to act on their behalf when setting up POA.

I'm confused by your terms in bold.

Adult Social Care is part of the Council.

At least it is in my county.

MoneySeeker1

Yes. This Social Worker is a Council employee.

As far as I can work out she was hoping to get me to agree to an assessment of parent (without explaining to me in the slightest what was meant by that) and without me being able to have written information on it in front of me. Not unnaturally, I wanted the chance to have her explain what this was clearly to me and to have a relevant form to sign (that I could read for the small print) and not just be told "an assessment" in an email from her and she wanted me to email back "Yes, that's okay". I didn't.

How could I agree to something when I couldn't see clearly exactly what I would be agreeing to? It felt to me like the Council equivalent of someone saying to me personally "Please just sign this form for me personally. It's got lots of wording on it, but just trust me and you don't need to read it" and then finding that I'd been conned into signing a form to be a guarantor for them for instance.

She was supposed to meet me in person and we had an appointment set up for that, which she cancelled without telling me and sent a very abrupt/unhelpful person in her stead and I was none the wiser.

I could have been signing my parents up for anything and I wouldn't have known what it was, without having the chance to pay "due care and attention".

At the moment the Kind Doctor tells me she deems Bedblocker Parent to still have understanding of their position and be capable of making their own decisions and so, thankfully, the personal type POA hasn't been "triggered" yet. Everyone knows I am the one closest to the parent concerned and we try and "look out for each other" and hence I think what they've been doing is to get me to make their decisions and persuade them into them. I'm not going to try force parent to do anything I think they don't want to do/isn't in their best interests and hence want all the facts in order to make up my own mind what I think is in their best interests (part of the reason for me rejecting bad nursing home, as one box that good nursing home ticked is "Of course the other one can come in and join them for meals any time they want" and I could picture them doing just that). In fact the Good Home ticked every box and I was quite impressed with it.

Pollycat

MoneySeeker1 said:

Yes. This Social Worker is a Council employee.

As far as I can work out she was hoping to get me to agree to an assessment of parent (without explaining to me in the slightest what was meant by that) and without me being able to have written information on it in front of me. Not unnaturally, I wanted the chance to have her explain what this was clearly to me and to have a relevant form to sign (that I could read for the small print) and not just be told "an assessment" in an email from her and she wanted me to email back "Yes, that's okay". I didn't.

How could I agree to something when I couldn't see clearly exactly what I would be agreeing to? It felt to me like the Council equivalent of someone saying to me personally "Please just sign this form for me personally. It's got lots of wording on it, but just trust me and you don't need to read it" and then finding that I'd been conned into signing a form to be a guarantor for them for instance.

She was supposed to meet me in person and we had an appointment set up for that, which she cancelled without telling me and sent a very abrupt/unhelpful person in her stead and I was none the wiser.

I could have been signing my parents up for anything and I wouldn't have known what it was, without having the chance to pay "due care and attention".

Can you clarify what the POA you referred to in your original post refers to?

i.e.the one where someone else holds power of attorney, not you

Is it Lasting POA?

Or the older Enduring POA?

If LPOA:

Is it for 'Property and Financial Affairs'?

Or 'Health and Welfare'?

Or both?

Re the bits in bold in your post, you need to be careful that you are not making decisions that are outside your remit to make.

MoneySeeker1

It's both POA that are involved and they are newer-style ones. The financial one has been being used by relative with it for some months now and hence my surprise/upset that (about a year after this) there has been no sort of financial report to me (even of the most basic variety) by this relative. I don't expect every little figure to be run past me, but to know the general gist of it is something I expect and I believe it might be the law that a close relative like myself should be kept posted on this. You will understand I'm wary that I was never contacted as a "person of interest" come the time this was done and had no chance to say anything one way or another about it. I would have thought that they would "share info." with me, if only for their own sakes to prove they are trustworthy. When a very good friend of mine had to do this for a relative recently she kept meticulous accounts/receipts/etc and told everyone involved everything and didn't keep anyone in the dark and I know that is the commonsense/common decency way to do things and thought the law mandated it too.

I'm having to weigh up available options in total ignorance of how much money there is (or isn't) available to pay for any choices made. So, of course, I am just automatically choosing the best possible option each time (with no regard whatsoever of whether the money is actually there for it or no basically). Hence I made it plain that the carers are to keep going in to see the other parent at their home and have no idea if the money is there to pay for that or no and so I just said "Keep sending them in, as I want an eye kept on them for their welfare". So I'm basically saying "There will be 5 star level of spending", whilst not knowing whether there is only "2 star" level of money.

Mojisola

MoneySeeker1 said:

It's both POA that are involved and they are newer-style ones.

I don't understand why you are involved with these decisions - the person your parents chose to be their POA should be working with the hospital, social workers and care company to organise things.

Pollycat

Mojisola said:

MoneySeeker1 said:

It's both POA that are involved and they are newer-style ones.

I don't understand why you are involved with these decisions - the person your parents chose to be their POA should be working with the hospital, social workers and care company to organise things.

This was my point, Mojisola.

If the OP is making financial decisions for his/her parents and decisions about their welfare, I think they are on dangerous ground if someone else is named as attorney on both LPOAs.

OP - regardless of how the POA was set up, it is not within your remit to make these decisions.

The attorney should keep records but they are not obliged to make a financial report to you.

It doesn't matter what anyone else did/does when acting as an attorney.

A person named as attorney is accountable to The Office of the Public Guardian for the decisions they make.

If you believe the person nominated as attorney is not acting in the best interests of your parent(s), I suggest you escalate this.

But I would make very sure that you have proof.

Savvy_Sue

There are two points I think are worth making: 

1. The Council is entirely used to having to fund people in care homes with a charge against the eventual sale of the property, so do not worry about that. 
2. It is possible that BB Parent would be entitled to Continuing Health Care if their needs are sufficiently high. This would mean that no financial assessment would be necessary. The bar is high, and it can be a nightmare to claim, but it is worth asking about it. 

Pollycat

Savvy_Sue said:

There are two points I think are worth making: 

1. The Council is entirely used to having to fund people in care homes with a charge against the eventual sale of the property, so do not worry about that. 
2. It is possible that BB Parent would be entitled to Continuing Health Care if their needs are sufficiently high. This would mean that no financial assessment would be necessary. The bar is high, and it can be a nightmare to claim, but it is worth asking about it. 

I'm not used to the rules surrounding LPOA and responsibilities/remit that comes with it but if POA is held by person A, should person B be discussing anything with an official body? (genuine question)

It sounds like the OP's parents have given LPOA to someone else (a relative) without his/her knowledge at the time and is not being very communicative but I think the OP needs to be careful of doing anything that may land them in trouble.