Bed blocking

crv1963

OP- the POA has given someone else the decision making. 

I understand that you are upset at their lack of communication with you. However unpleasant this is for you they are under no obligation to do so, they are ones that should be dealing with this matter. As a son or daughter your views and concerns should of course be noted as should those of the other parent.

I would ask for an assessment of need and if the hospital say a Nursing Home is needed then a Continuing Health Care assessment would be indicated- no one will attempt to seize the parental home while occupied by the remaining parent but a charge would be made on it so when it is finally sold the council will be reimbursed for the fees it has paid. I suggest you ask the Social Worker to explain the process to you. 

Whilst it may sound harsh you cannot prevent the hospital/ local authority acting to place parent into a Nursing Home assessed as suitable if no place is available in your preferred place and if your preferred place has a room available but it costs more then they may well refuse to fund it.

All of the above are within the remit of the person with the POA. Indeed they may well be part way through the process and not communicated this to you.

MoneySeeker1

crv1963 said:

Whilst it may sound harsh you cannot prevent the hospital/ local authority acting to place parent into a Nursing Home assessed as suitable if no place is available in your preferred place and if your preferred place has a room available but it costs more then they may well refuse to fund it.

This is one of my concerns. As I've noted, there are two possible nearby nursing homes and one of them is awful (to give an example of what I mean = it was mid-morning when I popped in to inspect it and I literally could not see one single occupant, as they all appeared to be in their rooms with the doors shut on them) and it felt old/tired/being done on a shoestring.

The second I walked out and shortly afterwards walked into the other nursing home, then there were a noticeable number of residents and several of them came up to the person in charge showing me round with queries. Manager instantly addressed them each by name, knew the general nature of their likely concerns and respectfully dealt with them and I spotted a staff member just walk up and quietly sit down by a person that was starting to get a bit agitated and just compassionately hold their hand. It was modern/made clear visitors are welcome/etc. Well impressed by the second one.

Hence I wish to "hold out" until the hospital/local authority accepts that my parent will stay there bedblocking until such time as they are released to one of: local community hospital, hospice or the good nursing home and won't agree to them sending my parent into the bad nursing home. 

The position is that my parents modest assets do mean there is a "house to grab" at some point and therefore I hope that means that a cheapo/bad home can't be enforced - as there is the money available to be grabbed to pay for a decent one.

Meanwhile, I'm trying and trying to get the POA relative to be as straight/open with me as I would be with them and coming up against a brick wall whatever avenue I try and they/their partner do have "form" I've previously found for being less than honest with money issues (I've caught them out on 2 occasions in regard to other financial matters - one they probably don't know I know being that the garden they use on their house is a lot bigger than the garden they actually own - ie they've "adversely possessed" next door land that belongs to someone else). I could have done the same to a bit of stray land I know belongs to someone else next to my house, but I don't agree with doing that and I haven't.

The parent concerned (despite being a generation older than me) is, at times, I feel still a bit naive about just what some people can be like (they are a humanist and have a tendency to believe the best of everyone - even when it's clearly not justified) and it's the other parent (who is also a secretive person) that makes their financial decisions for both of them on their own and favours my sibling.


I "think" it's the case that they can't discharge a patient from hospital until someone signs discharge papers as "suitable to leave" - whether that someone is the patient themselves or someone on their behalf?? Is that the case?

Pollycat

MoneySeeker1 said:

crv1963 said:

Whilst it may sound harsh you cannot prevent the hospital/ local authority acting to place parent into a Nursing Home assessed as suitable if no place is available in your preferred place and if your preferred place has a room available but it costs more then they may well refuse to fund it.

This is one of my concerns. As I've noted, there are two possible nearby nursing homes and one of them is awful (to give an example of what I mean = it was mid-morning when I popped in to inspect it and I literally could not see one single occupant, as they all appeared to be in their rooms with the doors shut on them) and it felt old/tired/being done on a shoestring.

The second I walked out and shortly afterwards walked into the other nursing home, then there were a noticeable number of residents and several of them came up to the person in charge showing me round with queries. Manager instantly addressed them each by name, knew the general nature of their likely concerns and respectfully dealt with them and I spotted a staff member just walk up and quietly sit down by a person that was starting to get a bit agitated and just compassionately hold their hand. It was modern/made clear visitors are welcome/etc. Well impressed by the second one.

Hence I wish to "hold out" until the hospital/local authority accepts that my parent will stay there bedblocking until such time as they are released to one of: local community hospital, hospice or the good nursing home and won't agree to them sending my parent into the bad nursing home. 

The position is that my parents modest assets do mean there is a "house to grab" at some point and therefore I hope that means that a cheapo/bad home can't be enforced - as there is the money available to be grabbed to pay for a decent one.

Meanwhile, I'm trying and trying to get the POA relative to be as straight/open with me as I would be with them and coming up against a brick wall whatever avenue I try and they/their partner do have "form" I've previously found for being less than honest with money issues (I've caught them out on 2 occasions in regard to other financial matters - one they probably don't know I know being that the garden they use on their house is a lot bigger than the garden they actually own - ie they've "adversely possessed" next door land that belongs to someone else). I could have done the same to a bit of stray land I know belongs to someone else next to my house, but I don't agree with doing that and I haven't.

The parent concerned (despite being a generation older than me) is, at times, I feel still a bit naive about just what some people can be like (they are a humanist and have a tendency to believe the best of everyone - even when it's clearly not justified) and it's the other parent (who is also a secretive person) that makes their financial decisions for both of them on their own and favours my sibling.


I "think" it's the case that they can't discharge a patient from hospital until someone signs discharge papers as "suitable to leave" - whether that someone is the patient themselves or someone on their behalf?? Is that the case?

You do not have power of attorney.
For whatever reason your parents elected to choose someone else to administer their affairs - health & wealth and property & finance - not you.
If you have proof that the person that your parents nominated is not acting in your parents' best interests, you should report this to the appropriate body.
You are not authorised (your parents' choice) to make decisions about which home they go into.

MoneySeeker1

I do understand your point - but my point is I have told the POA relative what my wish is in this respect (in writing), so that I have proof I have done so and, though I've given all evidence to them for both homes, there has been no response agreeing "No it won't be the Bad Home. Yes I agree - it will be Good Home if it does come to a home". That is very odd not to agree that obviously the Bad Home is not "on the table" as a possibility and I will hit the roof if I find parent has just been sneaked into Bad Home against my clearly expressed wishes to them and will darn soon ask them why they chose a cheaper one if it came to that (when my parents do have enough house-grabbing money there potentially to pay for the good one). Parent still is deemed to have mental capacity at present to make their OWN decisions and, if I find they've been sneaked into the Bad Home, I will certainly visit them there and point out how close it is to their own home and ask if they'd like me to take them on a visit back to their own home. Visions of having to "kidnap" my own parent if I believe they are being treated badly.

crv1963

If your parent has been deemed to have capacity then the choice is theirs, the POA may not even be in use! 

Pollycat

MoneySeeker1 said:

I do understand your point - but my point is I have told the POA relative what my wish is in this respect (in writing), so that I have proof I have done so and, though I've given all evidence to them for both homes, there has been no response agreeing "No it won't be the Bad Home. Yes I agree - it will be Good Home if it does come to a home". That is very odd not to agree that obviously the Bad Home is not "on the table" as a possibility and I will hit the roof if I find parent has just been sneaked into Bad Home against my clearly expressed wishes to them and will darn soon ask them why they chose a cheaper one if it came to that (when my parents do have enough house-grabbing money there potentially to pay for the good one). Parent still is deemed to have mental capacity at present to make their OWN decisions and, if I find they've been sneaked into the Bad Home, I will certainly visit them there and point out how close it is to their own home and ask if they'd like me to take them on a visit back to their own home. Visions of having to "kidnap" my own parent if I believe they are being treated badly.

Re the bit in bold:
I suggest you talk to your parent about changing the named attorney on the LPOA.
If they don't want to do that, then you can 'hit the roof' all you like but it will not be your call about their health, welfare, property or finance.
I will say this one more time:
if you have evidence that the named attorney is not acting in your parent's best interests or that they were coerced into naming that person as attorney, you should report it to the appropriate body.

Savvy_Sue

Pollycat said:

Savvy_Sue said:

There are two points I think are worth making: 

1. The Council is entirely used to having to fund people in care homes with a charge against the eventual sale of the property, so do not worry about that. 
2. It is possible that BB Parent would be entitled to Continuing Health Care if their needs are sufficiently high. This would mean that no financial assessment would be necessary. The bar is high, and it can be a nightmare to claim, but it is worth asking about it. 

I'm not used to the rules surrounding LPOA and responsibilities/remit that comes with it but if POA is held by person A, should person B be discussing anything with an official body? (genuine question)

It sounds like the OP's parents have given LPOA to someone else (a relative) without his/her knowledge at the time and is not being very communicative but I think the OP needs to be careful of doing anything that may land them in trouble.

Well you're right, of course, but sometimes I think it's worth addressing the other concerns bubbling away in the background, and these seemed to be two of them. 

Savvy_Sue

MoneySeeker1 said:

I "think" it's the case that they can't discharge a patient from hospital until someone signs discharge papers as "suitable to leave" - whether that someone is the patient themselves or someone on their behalf?? Is that the case?

Nope, I think you're quite wrong about that. 

It is the medical staff who decide whether or not someone is fit for discharge. They SHOULD ensure that the situation to which they are being discharged is safe and suitable, but that doesn't stop some daft decisions being made, because they are under severe pressure to prevent bed-blocking. 

A friend has seen an in-law moved at short notice (had been told they would get 24 hours notice, then found they were on the move RIGHT THEN!). That was only from one hospital to another. They are still in dread that said in-law may be deemed fit to be discharged, and may be sent home before the long list of aids and adaptations deemed necessary by the OT has been dealt with. But the in-law has capacity, so it's not my friend's or his wife's problem. 

MoneySeeker1

crv1963 said:

If your parent has been deemed to have capacity then the choice is theirs, the POA may not even be in use! 

The personal POA "hasn't been triggered" yet in the words of the Hospital to me a few days ago. I was told "Your parent is still capable of telling me what they want - and they are finding Other Ways as well" (and peered straight at me, ie their closest child/the one who thinks the most like them).

MoneySeeker1

SAVVY SUE

That is a worrying thought that they might try and pull that stunt. I think the Hospital has got the measure of me and have certainly been told bluntly that "There are patients that have a legally-minded fighter of a child - and that means me in this case and I won't hesitate if I think you're not acting for my parents best welfare. Don't even try it - as I've fought a long court case against someone else before now and they could tell you I won". I think they've decided that "Patient has a Tiger Child" and shouldn't pull that stunt on us. So, parent has a nice/helpful type doctor by look of it and the rest of them have had "fear of God" put into them if they try anything like that.