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Bed blocking

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  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 35,739 Forumite
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    crv1963 said:
    If your parent has been deemed to have capacity then the choice is theirs, the POA may not even be in use! 
    The personal POA "hasn't been triggered" yet in the words of the Hospital to me a few days ago. I was told "Your parent is still capable of telling me what they want - and they are finding Other Ways as well" (and peered straight at me, ie their closest child/the one who thinks the most like them).

     This is all sounding very strange.
    Why are you talking about what the attorney is doing if the POA hasn't been 'triggered yet'?
    Why is the attorney doing anything?


  • Polly - I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick. I'm struggling to find in what way your posts are meant to be helpful to me.,

  • Savvy_Sue
    Savvy_Sue Posts: 47,297 Forumite
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    Polly - I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick. I'm struggling to find in what way your posts are meant to be helpful to me.,

    I think there is a concern that you are engaged in a battle which you actually cannot and will not win, because it may not be your battle. 

    You have said that the person with Power of Attorney is not you. That means you don't get to make the decisions. You may be consulted, but your opinion has no legal weight. While your parent retains 'capacity' to make their own decisions, neither you nor their Attorney can make decisions for them. But you are worried about how much money is available, and think that the Attorney has the answer to this - has the Financial PofA been used? If not, they may not know what state the savings are in either. 

    It's possible the nice doctor at the hospital doesn't know who has PofA, and while your parent retains capacity, it's irrelevant. 
    Signature removed for peace of mind
  • MoneySeeker1
    MoneySeeker1 Posts: 1,229 Forumite
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    edited 14 February 2020 at 11:39AM
    1. The financial POA is being used and has been for about a year and that relative is refusing to share information on that, despite repeated requests from me. This may be due to the fact that the secretive child is favourite child of the parent that is secretive and may or may not imply dishonesty (but there have been a couple of incidents over the years of secretive child going in for theft - eg that "adverse possession" of land someone else owns next to their garden - so it doesnt bode well for their honesty levels).

     I am the favourite child of the Hospital Parent and share their belief in everything being open/fair/accountable and it thus makes it much harder for anyone to "get up to anything they shouldnt" and that's part of why we believe in openness and any organisations/etc I have a hand in running are so "open" and accountable (because I set up everything within my grasp to be that way and if the Secretives try and keep things "closed" then there are rows until they are "open/accountable").

    2. I am told the personal POA has not been "triggered". Obviously, I hope it won't be - because in that situation secretive child and I are on exactly equal footing, as neither of us has "overall power" and both of us have to discuss things equally (whether they like it or no). 

  • Pollycat
    Pollycat Posts: 35,739 Forumite
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    Polly - I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick. I'm struggling to find in what way your posts are meant to be helpful to me.,


    If I'm getting the wrong end of the stick, it's because your posts are confusing.
    You originally said:
    myself and the relative with POA have decreed my parents are to keep having these carers in

    Then you said:

    POA relative is being "closed/closed/refusing to tell me anything"
    "I'll tell POA relative what I will accept/what I won't accept" etc lines. For instance, I've told POA relative (in writing) I would accept the good nursing home if need be and I wouldn't accept the bad nursing home.
     So I expect the different arms of the State are all fighting with each other to "pass the buck", but I'm not being told this and I don't know/don't think POA relative is being told this. It feels like there is a lot of conflict going on behind the scenes and then I have POA relative keeping me in the dark and I'm just having to hope that when I make decisions for parents' best interests that POA relative isn't making different ones and then we'd have our own conflict going on (over and above the "Tell me whats what", stonewall response, "Tell me whats what", stonewall response that we've got).
    I do understand your point - but my point is I have told the POA relative what my wish is in this respect (in writing), so that I have proof I have done so and, though I've given all evidence to them for both homes, there has been no response agreeing "No it won't be the Bad Home. Yes I agree - it will be Good Home if it does come to a home".
    All of this points to this 'POA relative' having 'triggered' POA for health and wealth - otherwise why have you even mentioned this 'POA relative' in respect of the health and welfare of your parent?

    The personal POA "hasn't been triggered"
    You've then shared this information ^^^^
    As your issue is with the health and welfare of your parent and the health & welfare POA hasn't been 'triggered' yet, why are you in communication with the person named in the POA?
    In fact, the comment below is key:
    yet in the words of the Hospital to me a few days ago. I was told "Your parent is still capable of telling me what they want - and they are finding Other Ways as well" (and peered straight at me, ie their closest child/the one who thinks the most like them).

    So - to summarise from your comments:
    your parent is capable of making a decision about their own health and welfare
    the health and welfare POA hasn'r been 'triggered' yet

    Why didn't you share this information from the beginning?
    Isn't the important bit to get your parent sorted out with the care they need and let the person with financial & property POA
    sort out the financial bit?

    I'm not surprised I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick given the trickle of information and the confusion about the 'POA relative'.
    I'm not surprised you're struggling to find in what way my posts are meant to be helpful to you.
    I'm out.




  • Browntoa
    Browntoa Posts: 49,602 Forumite
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    Property is excluded as the spouse is still living there. It's a "mandatory disregard" for evaluation of funding of care. 

    Are you sure it's a council social worker ? My local trust have their own in house team .

    The evaluation they talk about needing should look at mental capacity and overall current health diagnosis.

    If the bed blocker's health is that poor and complex then it's possible that they are entitled to continuing health care which is funded by the NHS .

    If council funded care then they will tell you which band of funding they qualify for and how much that is . Any pensions , state or private , are taken as top up if needed . A small amount ( possibly £25 a month , memory fails me ) is excluded to cover personal items like hair cuts and clothing.
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  • Savvy_Sue
    Savvy_Sue Posts: 47,297 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    1. The financial POA is being used and has been for about a year and that relative is refusing to share information on that, despite repeated requests from me. This may be due to the fact that the secretive child is favourite child of the parent that is secretive and may or may not imply dishonesty (but there have been a couple of incidents over the years of secretive child going in for theft - eg that "adverse possession" of land someone else owns next to their garden - so it doesnt bode well for their honesty levels).
    As has already been said, the person with PofA does not HAVE to share any information with you. If you are concerned, you need to raise it with the Court of Protection. 
    2. I am told the personal POA has not been "triggered". Obviously, I hope it won't be - because in that situation secretive child and I are on exactly equal footing, as neither of us has "overall power" and both of us have to discuss things equally (whether they like it or no). 
    I'm not sure that's true. Like it or not, someone other than you has been appointed PofA for Health and Welfare. That's the person who has the authority to make the decisions. 

    Or are you saying that you're on an equal footing UNTIL the PofA for H&W is triggered? You're still not on an equal footing: what your parent wishes trumps everything you and your sibling may want to happen. 
    Signature removed for peace of mind
  • Yes - I am saying POA relative and I are on an equal footing (in law, as well as everything else) unless/until the personal POA gets "triggered". It has not been triggered yet - so, in any way of thinking, we are currently on an equal footing - that being the relative themselves is still currently making their own decisions for themselves. Unless/until that POA is triggered - if they cannot make decisions for themselves we are on an equal basis in every respect (including under the law). They cannot be treated as having that POA - unless it has been triggered officially.

  • MoneySeeker1
    MoneySeeker1 Posts: 1,229 Forumite
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    edited 17 February 2020 at 9:07AM
    The latest thing is that I am getting the distinct impression things are rather chaotic in the hospital that Hospital Parent is in. They even phoned at one point to tell me they are dead - when they aren't!!! It is as well that I didn't believe them and checked and found they had been confused with someone else's relative.

    It's very much a matter of "left hand not knowing what right hand is doing" from what I can make out. There was a Care Manager appointed some time after I'd been told they had just been. Then the Care Manager decided they aren't needed any more, but hadnt bothered to tell us. 

    Right now Hospital Parent apparently wants to go home, Other Parent is telling me they "dont want the responsibility" and we seem to be stuck in limbo.

    Care Manager (as was) has finally stated that they've not been Care Manager for some days now and is just saying "Consult the ward". Other relative is now saying we need to investigate re "continuing health care" and "fast tracking" and I don't actually know what these terms mean - other than an assumption that "fast tracking" means "Do it when it's due, ie Right Now - and not after some endless NHS waiting list type set-up".

    I'm inclined to think that both parents need to meet at the hospital bed and discuss their respective wishes re whether Hospital Parent does or doesnt go home before we can do anything and that's a "task and a half" as to how to logistically arrange to get Other Parent in to see Hospital Parent (as they are housebound with illness and the hospital is some distance from their home).

    Now trying to see a way forward through all this and puzzled how to achieve even Stage 1 (of both parents meeting and having a discussion about "Home or not") and, with Hospital Parent drifting in and out of lucidity and the Other Parent just doesn't want to make a decision my head hurts.

    Has anyone else been in this exact position and what did you do if so?

    EDIT; Thinking about the way Other Parent has been over the years and I doubt they'd make a mutual decision if they did meet anyway, as the way they've operated over the years has been Other Parent has made all their decisions for them and then wheedled/hinted/blocked knowledge of options they wouldnt agree to themselves etc in order to get their way and there would be an impasse of one wanting one thing and the other wanting another and Other Parent probably wouldnt even say straight out that they don't want Hospital Parent back.

  • lisyloo
    lisyloo Posts: 30,077 Forumite
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    edited 17 February 2020 at 5:39PM
    I’ve been in a similar situation. Continuing health care is granted when the primary needs of the parent are medical and that means your parent could be put into a nursing home but entirely funded by the NHS, the bar is very high for this for obvious reasons.
    the normal needs of washing, dressing, mobility, feeding are personal not medical.
    the reason why you are facing this pressure is because the local authority can be fined by the day for bed blocking. Although it might not seem like it this gives you an advantage if you are prepared to fight as the LA are disadvantaged by fines.
    my FIL at 89 was unable to cope emotionally with the 24/7 responsibility and broke down at the hospital meeting with the discharge coordinator. You may need your “at home” parent to hobble in there on a Zimmer frame and break down in front of them for them to get the message. It may be that your “at home” parent is unwilling to admit. My FIL found it very difficult to admit he couldn’t take care of his wife.
    the home is not at risk.
    only the income of the individual and their single assets counts for assessment. They would lose their income minus £25 for personal items e.fg. Clothing.
    note they will be regarded as 2 separate people for financial assessments and benefits also.
    we went “to panel” and the LA agreed to our home and we said we couldn’t contribute.
    when it was time for 2nd parent to go into the nursing home we had to fight again because after 60 years of marriage the LA wanted to split them up. We won again.
    so I would say fight when representing your parent. They gave in to use twice because of the fines and not wanting a protracted fight (we had no POA and MIL could not make decisions but were a united family).
    good luck
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