Can I be forced to have a smart meter?

Scot_39

dealhunter2025 said:

An engineer came to fit one he found that there is not enough space where the current meter is to install - part of the wall would need removing. This would incur additional costs to me, which I would prefer to avoid - therefore I ignore requests to install smart meters. Does anyone know if there are any schemes to have such costs covered to enable smart meter installation, or does this purely need to be covered by the house owner?

AFAIK its entirely up to the homeowner.  Seen others here quote their quotes from their own electricians.

If the height of the meter including the top mounted comms hub is the constraint -

have you tried to see if your supply will fit a smart meter with a cabled comms hub (to take a couple of inches of the height) if that would be enough.

The only supplier I've seen do so here was Octopus - but others might

One is referenced here

https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

Kaifa FL-100 cable for that particular manufacturer - their not long cables - but could allow side by side if height the issue..

Not sure if other manufacturers / other suppliers support / fit though.

Ildhund

EssexHebridean said:

As a rule the actual SMETS2 meter itself won't be any larger than what was there before. 

I had a look to check this out. My own Aclara meter is 120mm wide x 117mm tall, so possibly a bit wider than many older devices. I think the only DCC-approved way of relocating the CH is by means of the Kaifa FL100 Flying Lead, which doesn't look that much less tall than the CH itself, but it might be enough in a tight spot. 

[Deleted User]

dealhunter2025 said:

An engineer came to fit one he found that there is not enough space where the current meter is to install - part of the wall would need removing. This would incur additional costs to me, which I would prefer to avoid - therefore I ignore requests to install smart meters. Does anyone know if there are any schemes to have such costs covered to enable smart meter installation, or does this purely need to be covered by the house owner?

I know that at least one of the energy suppliers were offering cash incentives to customers to get a smart meter installed but don't recall who - maybe someone else could help with that? Maybe you could change provider to some such supplier as a first step? Although it's unlikely to cover the cost it will go some way to offsetting it. Also, many contributors to this forum have made enough savings by taking advantage of tariffs only available with smart meters in less than a year that would probably more than cover any costs you incur, so might be worth paying. Or possibly just hold out in the hope that as the roll out comes to an end there will be incentives for people in your situation?

James_Freebourne

From all the reading that I've been doing, I think it comes down to the following.
No, you are not legally required to have a 'smart' meter fitted, but if your current meters calibration has run out, they do have a legal obligation to replace it.  But here's the rub; meter manufacturers have long-since stopped production of regular meters for homes, so the availablility of traditional meters is all-but non-existent, thus leaving you with no choice but have a 'smart' meter fitted, plus of course, a lot of the tariffs require you to agree to a 'smart' meter in order to get the tariff.

Ok, I hear you say - I've clearly go no choice in real terms; what about this 'dumb' mode?  Yes, we know that putting a meter into 'dumb' mode will stop it sending readings, but nothing has been said about receiving and actioning changes/firmware updates (imagine yours had been set to 'dumb', gets a firmware update, which re-enables the automatic readings - only you don't know about it!.  Since all the energy companies have already had consent from the regulator to implement 'burst charging' (not possible with regular meters, but can be done with 'smart' meters), where the price/per unit of electricity goes up or (hopefully) down depending on overall demand, putting a meter into 'dumb' mode will probably not stop it receiving and activating the revised unit charge, so not really dumb.

As a final point, the in-house display is only guaranteed for 1-2 years and when it fails, the energy supplier is under no obligation to replace it, since the meter itself is still working fine - the homeowner needs to purchase a new display - they don't tell you that.

Qyburn

James_Freebourne said:

Since all the energy companies have already had consent from the regulator to implement 'burst charging' (not possible with regular meters, but can be done with 'smart' meters), where the price/per unit of electricity goes up or (hopefully) down depending on overall demand, putting a meter into 'dumb' mode will probably not stop it receiving and activating the revised unit charge, so not really dumb.

With respect that sounds confused. Yes suppliers can offer tariffs where the rate changes between one half hour and another, but these tariffs only apply to people who have signed up to them.

These time of use tariffs rely on the suppliers receiving readings from the meter, half hourly or daily depending on the tariff. What they receive is consumption data, numbers of kWh used during each interval. The supplier then applies the tariff.

MWT

James_Freebourne said:

...putting a meter into 'dumb' mode will probably not stop it receiving and activating the revised unit charge, so not really dumb.

Changing the unit price on a smart meter has zero impact on your bill...

If you are not on a tariff that has different rates for different times of day then you will not be charged for them no matter what has been sent to the smart meter.

James_Freebourne

MWT said:

James_Freebourne said:

...putting a meter into 'dumb' mode will probably not stop it receiving and activating the revised unit charge, so not really dumb.

Changing the unit price on a smart meter has zero impact on your bill...

If you are not on a tariff that has different rates for different times of day then you will not be charged for them no matter what has been sent to the smart meter.

MWT, you missed my point.  If the meter had been put into 'dumb' mode, how come it's making any changes?  Furthermore, if a firmware update had 'dumb' mode disabled by default, then applying that update to a meter in 'dumb' mode would turn off the 'dumb' mode, thus allowing the meter to restart sending readings without the homeowners' knowledge or consent.

QrizB

James_Freebourne said:

MWT said:

James_Freebourne said:

...putting a meter into 'dumb' mode will probably not stop it receiving and activating the revised unit charge, so not really dumb.

Changing the unit price on a smart meter has zero impact on your bill...

If you are not on a tariff that has different rates for different times of day then you will not be charged for them no matter what has been sent to the smart meter.

MWT, you missed my point.  If the meter had been put into 'dumb' mode, how come it's making any changes?  

There is no dumb mode. All smart meters connect to the WAN if a WAN connection is available.

James_Freebourne said:

... allowing the meter to restart sending readings without the homeowners' knowledge or consent.

All smart meters send readings.

James_Freebourne

My comments on burst charging seem to have caused a little confusion.  With a time-of-day tariffs like Economy7, the unit charge changes at fixed (and known) times of the day or night - burst charging does not work this way.
A National Grid engineer once explained like this - think concert ticket pricing.  Demand is low, so the prices are low.  As demand goes up, so do prices (for everyone) - if demand drops, prices fall again.
Another analogy he mentioned is the FA Cup final.  Everyone watching takes a break to go put the kettle on, increasing demand; so the cost of electricity goes up at that point.  With the second half now underway, demand falls, so so do costs - utterly dynamic; and impossible for the homeowner to budget for.

QrizB

James_Freebourne said:

My comments on burst charging seem to have caused a little confusion.  With a time-of-day tariffs like Economy7, the unit charge changes at fixed (and known) times of the day or night - burst charging does not work this way.

You're describing suge pricing, the same thing that Uber does for taxis at popular times.

James_Freebourne said:

A National Grid engineer once explained like this - think concert ticket pricing.  Demand is low, so the prices are low.  As demand goes up, so do prices (for everyone) - if demand drops, prices fall again.

Surge pricing.

James_Freebourne said:

Another analogy he mentioned is the FA Cup final.  Everyone watching takes a break to go put the kettle on, increasing demand; so the cost of electricity goes up at that point.  With the second half now underway, demand falls, so so do costs - utterly dynamic; and impossible for the homeowner to budget for.

That's not possible without a complete restructure of the wholesale electricity market. Half-hourly prices are set the day before, so can't be adjusted dynamically in the fashion you describe.

Those of us with dynamically-priced tariffs like Agile (and to a lesser extent FreePhase and Tracker) already use dynamic pricing to our own advantage.