Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

silverwhistle

JKenH said:

MG4 crowned 2023 DrivingElectric Car of the Year

Hopefully this won’t trigger any debate.

Why's that?:-)  I have one and very pleased with my lower range model. With the extra ~50 mile range over the ZS my experience of public charging will be even less. The two needed charges in two years for my ZS, one a 'get-me-home' of 1.8kWh, would not have been needed with the MG4.

The lower range model doesn't have quite the speed of charging mentioned in the article but still better than the ZS. As it's my first rear wheel drive car, with the weather in prospect I've been contemplating finding an empty, icy car park  for some experimentation, but if feel very stable on the road.

Martyn1981

Not the greatest news, but probably something most of us assumed. Battery costs have gone, due to demand growing so fast. Good news - long term things should be OK, but bad news - problems predicted for the short and medium term. 

EV Battery Prices Climb For The First Time

As 2022 draws to a close, the price of lithium-ion type batteries has gone up for the first time in more than a decade, with surging raw material and transport costs driving the cost hike, and rising demand set to challenge the car industry’s efforts to achieve price parity with fossil fuel powered (ICE) vehicles.

That push means that there is rising demand for EV battery materials, but not necessarily a rising supply. Charles Morris, over at EVANNEX, wrote, “Some industry experts are making dire predictions of looming shortages of critical minerals. One exec at a battery manufacturer recently told me that, while it might only take two years to build a battery gigafactory, it takes at least eight years, and sometimes much more, to bring a new lithium mine into production.” (Emphasis mine.)

Martyn1981

I just recalled seeing a useful chart on prices, so I've found it, and thought it was worth posting. It shows the uptick in 2022, and how close (so close) we now are to the parity point.

Only a rumour/suggestion, but I recall someone suggesting that mass production Chinese batteries may be at the lower end of the average price, and due to scale of production, Tesla may be upto 30% below the average, so possibly around $100/kWh. But just speculation.

How much does it cost to change an EV battery?

Martyn1981

Double decker bus day, 3rd post, on the battery shortage, prompted by a BTL comment:

I’m wondering about recycling and what role that does/can/will play.

This is a slightly laboured train of thought, but recycling may be usefulI now, long before old/dead BEV batteries reach a signifigant volume.

Here we go - l forget where I saw this, but it was quite recent, and looked into the demand for Cobalt. This suggested that in recent years ~24% was used for BEV batteries, ~25% for consumer electronics (and for reference ~10% for petrol/diesel refining (which is lost)).

Due to the problems of recycling Li-ion batts, and the issues of collecting, moving, centralising etc, the recycling rate for small batts is very poor. But as recycling expands for BEV batteries, such as Redwood materials, then it actually becomes easier to recycle the batts from consumer electronics.

Hope this makes sense, but the older age of the smaller batts, and the shorter life expectancies many have (they are worked very hard, often daily), mean that supplies for recycling may already be high. Whereas supply for recyling from BEV batteries is still extremely low.

I don't know if this issue/thought carries over to LFP batts, which may now account for more than 50% of BEV batt production by kWh, but it's a thought.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

I just recalled seeing a useful chart on prices, so I've found it, and thought it was worth posting. It shows the uptick in 2022, and how close (so close) we now are to the parity point.

Only a rumour/suggestion, but I recall someone suggesting that mass production Chinese batteries may be at the lower end of the average price, and due to scale of production, Tesla may be upto 30% below the average, so possibly around $100/kWh. But just speculation.

How much does it cost to change an EV battery?

It wouldn’t have been too hard to find an updated version of that if you had read the article I posted yesterday on the subject of rising battery prices on the EV discussion thread (copy below). It was in the link provided. The pack price has continued to fall but the cell price is back to 2019 levels in real prices.

JKenH said:

Batteries got more expensive in 2022 after years of dropping prices — and it could delay access to cheaper electric cars

BloombergNEF expects battery prices to rise slightly in 2023 before continuing their downward trend in 2024 as lithium mining and processing ramps up. Average pack prices should drop below $100/kWh — the group's rough threshold for price parity between electric and gas-powered cars — by 2026, two years later than it previously projected. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/cheap-electric-cars-delayed-ev-battery-prices-lithium-2022-12

I’ve posted the good news quote from the article.

Coastalwatch

Received a request recently to help with gleaning cabbages from a farmers field to supply local foodbanks. Turned out it was for today and thought why not.

A civilised start time, 9am requiring us to leave home around 8.30 this morning. It was the coldest night of the year with temps around -2 C so set the EV to charge in the overnight slot then come on again at 8am to finish off and warm it up nicely for the 8.30 start, clear screens all round. During this time the EV was drawing circa 3kW's which the storage batt's supplied without needing to trouble the grid at this time of higher demand. When we left, neighbours were active with cans of de icer on their ice vehicles.

Dressed suitably for the prevailing conditions with additional layers and a wheelbarrow onboard for transporting the multitiude of filled sacks of produce we set off feeling toasty and mostly stayed that way until nearing the end of the two and a half shift when the approx 1 tonne of produce had been collected.

The Savoys were all covered in frost and some with pools of ice in them where rainwater had previously collected, so for a couple of softy retirees something of a challenge. But, it was a bright, still morning and there was something about helping others that made the challenge all the more agreeable.

Think we're booked in for another next week!

Solarchaser

silverwhistle said: As it's my first rear wheel drive car, with the weather in prospect I've been contemplating finding an empty, icy car park  for some experimentation, but if feel very stable on the road.

I hope this doesn't come across as condescending, but as its your first rwd I would advise extra caution where you might not normally think it would be needed, things like banked corners, and inclines (and especially declines) on seldom travelled roads with low temperatures can be great fun in a rwd car if you enjoy sliding around (don't judge me) but can also be somewhat disconcerting if you are not expecting it.
Roundabouts with tree branches overhanging certain parts of the roundabout may mean they don't de-ice with sun where the other parts of the roundabout have,  and where you would potentially barely notice a little understeer in a fwd, that small patch of ice could result in snap oversteer in rwd.
In a fwd car when it starts to slide you have a choice for escape, brakes, acceleration or steering, in rwd it will mostly be steering, and sometimes brakes.

I think the icey carpark is a great idea, it will help you get the feel of the car with less to hit obviously, I like a b&q carpark as they are pretty spacious. 

I've not driven an mg, so don't know what regen is like, I can tell you the Tesla 3 locked up on decel a few times last year with a frosted ice/snow covering, and ecen slush on a main road, whereas the leaf regen is nowhere near as powerful,  and its never slid or locked on regen regardless of road conditions. 
So if its selectable, I'd suggest light regen selection on ice/snow/frost covered roads

JKenH

Solarchaser said:

silverwhistle said: As it's my first rear wheel drive car, with the weather in prospect I've been contemplating finding an empty, icy car park  for some experimentation, but if feel very stable on the road.

I hope this doesn't come across as condescending, but as its your first rwd I would advise extra caution where you might not normally think it would be needed, things like banked corners, and inclines (and especially declines) on seldom travelled roads with low temperatures can be great fun in a rwd car if you enjoy sliding around (don't judge me) but can also be somewhat disconcerting if you are not expecting it.
Roundabouts with tree branches overhanging certain parts of the roundabout may mean they don't de-ice with sun where the other parts of the roundabout have,  and where you would potentially barely notice a little understeer in a fwd, that small patch of ice could result in snap oversteer in rwd.
In a fwd car when it starts to slide you have a choice for escape, brakes, acceleration or steering, in rwd it will mostly be steering, and sometimes brakes.

I think the icey carpark is a great idea, it will help you get the feel of the car with less to hit obviously, I like a b&q carpark as they are pretty spacious. 

I've not driven an mg, so don't know what regen is like, I can tell you the Tesla 3 locked up on decel a few times last year with a frosted ice/snow covering, and ecen slush on a main road, whereas the leaf regen is nowhere near as powerful,  and its never slid or locked on regen regardless of road conditions. 
So if its selectable, I'd suggest light regen selection on ice/snow/frost covered roads

Compacted snow/ice will be the real test. Popular RWD cars like the BMW are famous for their lack of traction in these conditions. Before he had kids my son for many years used to have a Mazda MX5 mk3 as his daily driver. I remember him visiting us a few years ago and the car would just spin its wheels on compacted snow to the extent that it would need a push to get moving and that was with traction control. Still the upside is once you do get moving you will be able to balance the car in a nice drift with opposite lock applied.😀

Edit: I seem to recall commenting on here about Tesla’s decision to remove the option of lower regen and how it might be dangerous in icy conditions. I think it was before you got your TM3 but my comment was rebuffed by someone.

Edit 2: in addition to all the potential hazard sites @Solarchaser listed also watch out for any bridges as without the mass of ground beneath them to retain heat they can become icy when other parts of the road are not.

Edit 3: Anthony Dyer who has a UK YouTube channel fits winter tyres to his Tesla for a few months of the year. He is though based in Aberdeen not Hampshire. https://youtu.be/xe2nyV1aAUw

Edit 4: actually a word of caution. I did buy a set of winter tyres on separate steel rims for my wife’s Picanto a few years back after we had pretty bad snow (2010 I think) and fitted them in November. I did find however that in most conditions the steering felt awful so after three years   with no snow I stopped doing it. 

silverwhistle

Thanks all, I did have some rims with snow tyres on my Hyundai i20 as I used it for trips to old haunts where I lived in the alps. I've driven a fair bit on snow as a result so aware of conditions and that RWD is different. I've observed some entertaining antics from RWD cars , but not actually experienced from inside one or at the wheel!

The MG4 actually has a snow setting along with eco, sport etc. so looking at this morning's heavy frost it might be worth trying.

Martyn1981

silverwhistle said:

Thanks all, I did have some rims with snow tyres on my Hyundai i20 as I used it for trips to old haunts where I lived in the alps. I've driven a fair bit on snow as a result so aware of conditions and that RWD is different. I've observed some entertaining antics from RWD cars , but not actually experienced from inside one or at the wheel!

The MG4 actually has a snow setting along with eco, sport etc. so looking at this morning's heavy frost it might be worth trying.

Couldn't agree with Solarchaser more ..... but ..... you may find the clever BEV will hold your hand, or in my case 'give me a reassuring hug' when exceeding my admittedly limited driving skills (v's Burt Reynolds) ....... to a degree!

30yrs back I had the ridiculous Yank Tank, with only abour 35hp/litre, but an absolute ton of torque. With over 6lts of V8 on the front axle and next to nothing on the rear it was, not exactly good. If the roads were just damp, then I had to take my foot off the brake and wait for the automatic to start moving the car, since flicking from brake to accelerator would result in zero forward movement, but a somewhat scary sideways wiggle of the rearend. Partially sorted with a couple of bags of sand in the boot, but not fun. It was crucial not to apply much (almost no) power in corners.

[Edit - To make matters worse it had the optional 'racing rear diff', which was quite significant, reducing top speed (I believe) from about 130mph down to ~100mph. So a very significant torque multiplier. M]

Then more recently when I exceeded the grip of the TM3 when accelerating too hard in a long corner, the car cut some of the power to the rear, and let the front axle pull us straight.

I know ICEV's have gotten way safer, and cleverer, and can use the braking system to tidy things up, but I suspect computers and leccy power/motors will be even better (faster) at looking after us. Bound to be some items on this, comparing vehicle abilities, or more correctly power delivery from different sources?

Hope you have fun in an icy carpark. I did that once with Trans-Am, and as I pulled in to have a play, the postman who was doing donuts in his post van drove off when he saw me. Probably safer for all concerned.