Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

1961Nick

Are we just supposed to just believe what’s written in the press & not challenge it when it’s clearly nonsense written by a lazy journalist who has zero knowledge about the subject?

There was one on this thread earlier that said the UK would have 600K BEVs by 2030. That’s clearly nonsense as we’ll possibly get to that figure in 2022. I’ve lost track of all the new battery chemistries that are going to make everything we have now redundant! How many times have I read that so & so is going to overtake Tesla when the truth is that all bar a couple of manufacturers have a fight on their hands to remain in business. 

One of our own members then very eloquently writes about his first hand experience of the UK charging network & gets lambasted.

Seems very unfair to me.

Grumpy_chap

I saw this article on the BBC earlier today, then it slipped from prominence so I had to seek it out again so that I can share the link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61905276
The factors mentioned are very likely not specific to TESLA, nor even to EV's or even just cars but, I suspect, indicative of challenges facing all types of manufacturing right now.  Perhaps that is why the article slipped from the landing page so swiftly, because it is just another example of the current status but nothing we find unduly astonishing right at this moment in time.

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

I saw this article on the BBC earlier today, then it slipped from prominence so I had to seek it out again so that I can share the link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61905276
The factors mentioned are very likely not specific to TESLA, nor even to EV's or even just cars but, I suspect, indicative of challenges facing all types of manufacturing right now.  Perhaps that is why the article slipped from the landing page so swiftly, because it is just another example of the current status but nothing we find unduly astonishing right at this moment in time.

The share price didn't react to that statement so the markets must be expecting a challenging Q2. If anyone can find a solution, my money would be on Tesla & Musk.

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

Exiled_Tyke said:

I'm not debating this. Merely explaining where a number of contributors are coming from.  For the record 'Balance' is in reference to Martyn's  intention for this thread when he set it up.  'Playing by the rules' refers to MSE rules on what is acceptable behaviour.  I refer to this merely because it illustrates how bad the situation became. 

Yes. Due to all of the disruption on the other threads at the time, I tried hard to make this thread safe by wording it carefully:

I thought a more specific thread/title might be useful for posting news on BEV's (and EV's in general), given that we have threads to discuss the minutia about EV ownership, but perhaps a thread just for the news might be useful.

Disclaimer from the start, BEV news can easily become Tesla heavy, so posts, especially mine, might appear a bit 'fanboi' but that's really just because they tend to dominate the news. However, there seems to be an ever growing amount of competition both in terms of BEV's and BEV news.

Have fun.

Unfortunately, like the other threads (Energy, Ethical Investing, etc) it is for a small minority, a way to spread negativity, often biased and unjustified. I think the recent discussion is an excellent example, where one person feels the charging network is extremely poor, and that households need to have an ICE, whilst all others (I think that's fair from the posted comments) feel that the charging network needs a lot of improvement but is not as bad as is being claimed (that position is then falsely described as 'sweeping the problems under the carpet'), and that not everyone needs to use the charging network, depending on driving needs, BEV range, BEV make.

I fail to understand how endlessly pushing a negative narrative, that flies in the face of the majority experience, is supposed to help anyone, and since a reasonable discussion is often not possible, and throws threads off course, the intention for this thread was to enjoy the transport revolution and share BEV news. That might even be described as a 'cheerleading thread' I suppose, and I'm not sure why that would be wrong on a Green & Ethical Board. But it's definitely not a discussion thread, and of course in no way prevents anyone from creating discussion threads on BEV's, there are many on the Motoring Forum.

You have done an excellent job there, Mart, of misrepresenting my part in this discussion. In particular you say “I think the recent discussion is an excellent example, where one person feels the charging network is extremely poor, and that households need to have an ICE”. I am sorry but that last remark is a total fabrication. Unless I have forgotten a post, the closest I came to that was saying “Having an ICE car to fall back on is also a consideration for some but as yet in 2+ years of owning an EV not a fall back I have exercised.” 

It’s an old trick but I am afraid not one I am prepared to let go unnoticed. If you want to make out I have said something then quote me and show the post it comes from; don’t just make it up. 

You then seek to undermine/discredit my posts by comments such as “unfortunately, like the other threads (Energy, Ethical Investing, etc) it is for a small minority, a way to spread negativity, often biased and unjustified.”

So what is negativity? On this forum it seems what is considered to be negativity often biased or unjustified depends on who is doing the posting and who is reading it. You posted about Hyundai/Kia investing twice as much on ICE development as on EVs. Now had I posted that it might have been taken as negativity and anti EV by some but you can post it and it’s fine. 

Others have posted comments that, had they come from me, would also probably have been labelled as negative, biased or unjustified but are in fact welcomed 

@orrery posted “Well, sometimes we do need a dose of realism. My own daughter (currently driving my old ICE) will be looking for a new car in the next 6 months and I'll be loath to recommend a pure EV over a PHEV. She has a 5 year old daughter and does tend to set off almost anywhere in Britain at a whim. I suspect that when she sees the prices and the lead times, she'll go for a more modern petrol.

I had a recent experience trying to use a GeniePoint charger with the Bonnet app and it took me three goes to get it to charge - I suspect that car had some timing interaction re locking the doors which upset it. Either way, this reliability will need to improve significantly for Joe Public to buy in.”

Judging by the reaction to other comments I made, had I posted that, it would no doubt have been labelled as negative, biased or unjustified. However @ExiledTyke (one of my more vocal critics) replies “Realism is good. Your example is a good one.” You didn’t write that, Mart, but you gave the comment ‘thanks’ so I assume you agree. (Please correct me if I am wrong). 

So when one person says he wouldn’t recommend an EV for his daughter (which of course is perfectly sensible if it won’t work for her) or reliability will need to improve significantly for Joe Public to buy in(which it will) then that’s ok but my comments about the need for improving the charging network or “having an ICE car to fall back on is also a consideration for some” are considered to be negativity, and biased and unjustified.

So let’s have a look at some of the actual things I did say rather than what you say I said.

In response to a post from  @silverwhistle I wrote

“I have in previous posts made the same point you make about the overall benefits of EVs vs ICE cars and that is why I have stuck with my EV. Having a lot of solar PV which basically provides nearly all my home charging in summer is a huge factor in my sticking with my EV  but perhaps only around 3% of households have this so not something many new car buyers will be able to factor in. 

Having an ICE car to fall back on is also a consideration for some but as yet in 2+ years of owning an EV not a fall back I have exercised.

I love driving EVs. It didn’t take me long to realise I don’t like driving ICE cars and sold mine. I try and make my EV work but the charging network isn’t where it should be for the number of EVs on the road. It has got better in terms of usability with many more contactless chargers available but there are still nowhere near enough chargers on the main trunk roads. It needs to be improved if we are to achieve our aims of getting everyone into new EVs as a matter of their own choice rather than coercion.”

Contrasting that with @orrery ‘s comments above - is what I said biased, unjustified and negativity?

Or how about

“During the first year of EV ownership the main charging issue for me was not availability of chargers but usability with the myriad apps required. This year while I have found less chargers available but so many more are now contactless and I haven’t had to ring a call centre once. Where the contactless option exists I don’t even bother with the app even if it is cheaper. I just tap my card and away we go.

When on Sunday I saw my last resort charger was BP Pulse I groaned as a couple of years back I could never get them to work and avoided ever since but fortunately the ones at Huntingdon were contactless and started no problem - even easier than a petrol pump where a pin is required. That’s how it should be and should have been from day one and we would have had nowhere near as many Daily Mail stories or genuinely frustrated EV users.”

So is that biased, unjustified and negativity or just an observation any EV user might make?

Perhaps the next one is a bit more negative, if you want to read it that way, written in response to a suggestion that on my recent trip to Cambridge I should have driven through a number of towns which were off my direct route when I had already identified a working charger on route.

“It is quite a compromise to have to avoid major trunk routes and divert through a succession of market towns when there is a direct route. It all adds time and there is still no guarantee that the charger you are aiming for will be free. I’m not saying journeys are impossible, it’s just highly likely that your charging plans, however well thought out may not work out. You have to build in a significant time buffer (in addition to the actual time charging) if you have an appointment. You may be lucky and have a smooth journey or you might waste hours waiting/diverting. It can also be stressful particularly if you have other people in the car. (When I drove to mid Wales before Xmas I made a list of almost every charger on or near the route I might use for both directions. It’s so time consuming.”

Please tell me what is more negative about each of those statements in the paragraph above than the ones in the post to which I was responding (below) from @EricMears

“In your position,  I'd have stopped long before the battery got down to 20-odd %.  Afraid these days the chances of finding a rapid charger available on a MSA are pretty slim but you wouldn't have had to go far out of your way to find an alternative.

There are for instance an Osprey at Bourne, a Morrisons at Stamford,  several rapids in Peterborough, one at Tesco in Huntingdon, another at Morrisons in St Ives.”

Using the threshold of negativity against which my comments are judged one could say that the suggestion to avoid the direct route and go on a roundabout route 20 minutes longer might be seen as negative, as is the observation that the chances of finding a rapid charger on a MSA are pretty slim or the advice to stop long before the battery gets down to 20%  but no such accusation of negativity was levelled against Eric, nor should it have been. The reality is these are just the sort of compromises even an ardent EV enthusiast recognises need to be made. 

No criticism of @EricMears or @orrery is is intended. I agree with them and quote them purely as examples of inconsistency in those who judge what is negative, biased or unjustified.

Another “negative” post from me that has been seized upon is 

“How anyone using an electric car for business manages, I just don’t know. “

Let’s put that comment in context. It was preceded by 

“Today I drove my motorhome down to Dorset. On the way we stopped at Northampton services (J15A M1) where I had a leg stretch before going back to the van for a cuppa. As I do, I checked out the charging situation and saw an e-tron charging and an e-Niro waiting on the single Gridserve charger. Half an hour later we strolled over to the services building to use the facilities and when I came out I saw the same 2 cars there with the e-Niro owner pacing around and no sign of the e-trim owner. The e-tron was at 73% and had added 43kwh. As the owner was awol that situation might persist  for some time. Now contrast that with my last visit there in my Leaf when I rolled up to the charger, plugged in and got a healthy charge. It is just pot luck.”

So what I am saying is if you turn up at an MSA (remember the comment above from @EricMears that the chances of finding a rapid charger are pretty slim) it is pot luck whether you will be able to charge or have to wait for half an hour or longer. Now when I was working, turning up on time for meetings or appointments was something considered quite important so how do you ensure you arrive on time for your appointment when you run the lottery of charging? You may say avoid MSAs, but generally the quickest route from A to B is using motorways so it’s another compromise adding time (which is money) to the day and that is not what the business owner wants. 

So what else did I say

“Electric cars are great to drive, extremely convenient to charge at home, cheap to run and for many people very tax efficient - that’s really why most people buy them - but they entail a significant change (compromise) to how one goes about long journeys which doesn’t always become apparent until you use one. That’s fine when you go into it happy to make that compromise but not everyone will be, particularly when it is forced on them.”  Is that really all that negative or perhaps just true. 

Ok, let’s try another one

“I’m quite lucky that I can usually find a free charger when I go to my Tesco. I think in most urban areas, if one charger isn’t available you can find another one not too far away. There are two Instavolts in Gainsborough and I can’t ever recall seeing them both in use at the same time - but it’s not really on the way to anywhere and anyone local will have charged at home. The problem is belting up and down trunk roads where there provision is poor and competition for them is high. Perhaps Cambridge is just at that distance from London that a lot of people travelling north up the M11 find it the perfect place to top up. I think Rugby is similar where even Tesla chargers can have queues at times. 

I don’t think it is about absolute numbers or numbers per head of population, it’s about working out where we need them. As we get EV penetration into terrace house and flat dwellers we will need the local chargers but at the moment I think most people do charge at home/work whenever possible and it is the long distance traffic we need to be catering for. “

Now again is that biased, unjustified and negativity or just an observation any EV user might make?

Or perhaps 

“I think we are all agreed that EVs are a huge step forward over current ICEs without having to dredge up issues that affected BL cars from the 70s. 

I love driving EVs. It didn’t take me long to realise I don’t like driving ICE cars and sold mine. I try and make my EV work but the charging network isn’t where it should be for the number of EVs on the road. It has got better in terms of usability with many more contactless chargers available but there are still nowhere near enough chargers on the main trunk roads. It needs to be improved if we are to achieve our aims of getting everyone into new EVs as a matter of their own choice rather than coercion. 

I am sorry you see my saying that as negativity. I want EVs to work for everyone and for everyone to want EVs because they are the right car for them. Sweeping the problems under the carpet doesn’t help any one.”

In all the comments above you will see I have highlighted certain statements I have made which are undeniably positive while at the same time I was pointing out why things that aren’t great with charging and where they need to be improved. I have done this purely to rebut this ridiculous myth you are perpetuating that I am anti EV. 

Something else I feel I should point out, not for your benefit but in case anyone else reads this post, is that the most vocal critics of my comments about charging come from 3 people who seem to be the least well qualified to understand public charging problems. You with your 300+ mile range Tesla (you state “we’ve been fully BEV for two years now, and have had no problems whatsoever”), @silverwhistle (“my own situation with never having used a public charger in anger (testing purposes only”) and @ExiledTyke who, and I stand to be corrected on this when I will of course apologise, judging from his posts doesn’t even own an EV. 

Edit: last paragraph removed in case it caused offence.

Martyn1981

1961Nick said:

Are we just supposed to just believe what’s written in the press & not challenge it when it’s clearly nonsense written by a lazy journalist who has zero knowledge about the subject?

There was one on this thread earlier that said the UK would have 600K BEVs by 2030. That’s clearly nonsense as we’ll possibly get to that figure in 2022. I’ve lost track of all the new battery chemistries that are going to make everything we have now redundant! How many times have I read that so & so is going to overtake Tesla when the truth is that all bar a couple of manufacturers have a fight on their hands to remain in business. 

One of our own members then very eloquently writes about his first hand experience of the UK charging network & gets lambasted.

Seems very unfair to me.

Hi. Who posted that nonsense article that massively understated the transition to BEV's? Or a year back, one claiming that Tesla Model 3 does 140 miles on a fill up? Or trying to push PHEV's, then HFCV's, then e-fuels? Or claiming that the National Grid is wrong? Or many other highly dubious articles that clearly made no sense on first skim, let alone reading?

Please post news, and of course issues where the articles are clearly nonsense. But after a year or more of one person claiming the charging network is terrible, and now so bad that BEV owners need to also own an ICE, when everyone else, including yourself, has disagreed*. And then when comments from all others that the network needs improving, are misrepresented as sweeping the truth under the carpet, what is the point of the discussion. We've been over this dozens of times already. 

*For some, they use the network and suggest it is poor but useable. For some, their driving needs don't require the use of the public charging network. For others, larger battery BEV's are enough. For some having a Tesla, they don't need to charge, or don't need to use the public network. And presumably now (slowly) some will benefit from the opening up of the Tesla network.

As I keep saying, there's nothing stopping anyone from creating a 'good or bad' thread for BEV's, and discussing such issues, though to be fair, there are many on the Motoring forum already. Ask yourself, why is it so important to keep arguing on this thread, and trying to justify such arguments, rather than simply creating a discussion thread instead? If the desire is to better inform other readers, than why are the opinions of the vast majority being dismissed just because they don't agree with the negative claims of one?

I'd be happy to discuss the pro's and con's on another thread, though to be honest I find it a tad tiring now (not 5yrs ago) as the direction of travel is now set, and often the negative posts will try to rail against the underlying technological shift (like many of the negatives on the G&E thread), rather than any actual specifics.

Some folk may not like what this thread was established for, and that's fine, simply create one for other needs or issues, and we can all enjoy that too.

shinytop

I enjoyed this thread in the couple of years ago and learned a lot from it.  I think I learned most when alternative viewpoints were posted and discussion ensued.  

If it ends up being a few EV evangelists posting good news story links and praise thereof, with all dissenting voices being banned/shouted down then I don't think I will any more. That sounds a bit too much like a religion to me.

  

Martyn1981

Big thank you to 1961Nick. And now for some news.

Couple(ish) of articles with an Asian theme.

There's the rapid growth of so many Chinese EV firms, many of whom are fully BEV. I think there may be 1,000's (not 100's), and of course many will fail or consolidate, but till then the offerings are extensive. Here's an example of a rapid grower:

XPeng Reaches 200,000 Vehicle Deliveries In Under 3 Years

Two and a half years after its first vehicle delivery, the delivery of an XPeng P7 in December 2018, XPeng has reached the milestone of 200,000 vehicle deliveries — all 100% electric vehicles, of course.

XPeng benefits from jumping onto the scene just as the EV market was getting hot, before legacy automakers were serious contenders, and in the hottest automotive and EV market in the world — China. Nonetheless, a ramp-up from 0 to 200,000 in 2 and a half years is notable feat, and we can expect much more growth in the next two and a half years.

And in India, where the two and three wheel BEV roll out is well under way, we see a great side benefit of the transport revolution:

Women Are Leading India’s EV Revolution. What Can The World Learn From Them?

To move into an industry traditionally dominated by men, it is easier if the work is also new and innovative. This brings in new people. Importantly, more Indian women than ever are engineering students. 42% of STEM graduates in India were women in 2018. That is a higher percentage than in the U.S., Germany, and other large economies.

One of India’s largest electric scooter factories is populated by women employees. As Julia Muir explains, “When a new technology comes in, there is the ability to take a woman on her merit, and not necessarily have to prove historic knowledge.” No, this is not Tesla, Toyota, or GM — perhaps they will catch up.

Technology refines and expands with women stepping into the roles of engineers. Encouraging young women, some electric scooter companies — for example, Ola and Piaggio — thrive successfully with an all-female staff in some of their factories. It’s not just manufacturing floor workers, though — more engineers and women are also becoming designers and CEOs.

Edit- And a late three for two bonus, we have strong growth in the Chinese EV and BEV market

China Electric Car Market — 31% Market Share In May!

Plugin vehicles continue to be all the rage in the Chinese auto market. With the end of the covid lockdowns, plugins went back to the fast lane, growing 109% year over year (YoY). They scored over 403,000 registrations in May, with plugin hybrids (PHEVs) surging 187% year over year (YoY) to a record 105,000 units. Their growth even beat that of BEVs, which grew a paltry 91%….

Share-wise, with May showing another great performance, plugin vehicles hit 31% market share! Full electrics (BEVs) alone accounted for 23% of the country’s auto sales! This pulled the 2022 share to 25% (20% BEV).

If electrification continues at this pace, this market will be BEV-based by 2025! Imagine that: the largest automotive market in the world being BEV-based in three years time!

Another measure of the importance of this market is the fact that China alone represented over half of global plugin registrations last month.

JKenH

paul991 said:

as  someone wo  just had to buy  a  new/ used ice  vehicle  i would of loved  to buy a bev but the initial layout was just too much and a  shortage of  good second  hand  vehicles on the market .i fail to understand  people say the  shortage of charge points because there seems to be loads round here several of them free

Rather than continue discussion on here I will reply on the EV discussion thread. 

QrizB

I'm sorry to see this schism but I can see how it could help to avoid personal attacks.

I'll be reading both threads and contributing where I can.

shinytop

I hope everyone will contribute to the new thread too; we need views from all sides.