Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

GreatApe

buglawton wrote: »

Reading into the topic in more detail, seems you have to consider the circuit losses when converting to wireless-AC and back to what the car charging circuit needs.

I have a feeling that the 97% is the pure transfer efficiency which does not account for pre and post processing losses.

Real world 59.4% wireless charging efficiency.... It's terrible.. 5 mins 10 seconds into the video

https://youtu.be/iOVg62_DUYU

The question is why are wireless EV chargers needed?

What is the benefit?

Especially considering a self drive car can just as easily drive into a male/female port as it can drive over a wireless charger

That is probably the future
Fleets of self drive taxis which go and rapid charge at the local rapid chargers
Drive into the charging port and when done drive out

The same could be done with private cars.
Whenever you need a charge send the car off to the local rapid charger and it can go do a one hour 10% to 90% charge and then drive back.

A single public rapid charger can possibly keep 200 cars on the road
If half the cars charge at home and the other half charge at rapid chargers this way
You'd only need some 100,000 rapid chargers across the whole country
Sounds a lot but those 100,000 can keep 20 million cars on the road

Or of course just simply drive to a supercharger and plug in manually
Or just top up here and there on slower 7.2KW chargers where ever it's available

buglawton

GreatApe wrote: »

Real world 59.4% wireless charging efficiency.... It's terrible.. 5 mins 10 seconds into the video

https://youtu.be/iOVg62_DUYU

The question is why are wireless EV chargers needed?

What is the benefit?

Especially considering a self drive car can just as easily drive into a male/female port as it can drive over a wireless charger

That is probably the future
Fleets of self drive taxis which go and rapid charge at the local rapid chargers
Drive into the charging port and when done drive out

The same could be done with private cars.
Whenever you need a charge send the car off to the local rapid charger and it can go do a one hour 10% to 90% charge and then drive back.

A single public rapid charger can possibly keep 200 cars on the road
If half the cars charge at home and the other half charge at rapid chargers this way
You'd only need some 100,000 rapid chargers across the whole country
Sounds a lot but those 100,000 can keep 20 million cars on the road

Or of course just simply drive to a supercharger and plug in manually
Or just top up here and there on slower 7.2KW chargers where ever it's available

6.5 mins into same video - another company claims to be achieving 90%.
Jury's out on this for now. For taxi ranks and delivery vans I can see a compelling use case. Particularly the taxis who in Winter sit there in the rank with their diesel engines running to keep the driver warm.

ABrass

https://www.powerelectronictips.com/measuring-wireless-charging-efficiency-in-the-real-world/

More detail on the Qi report. Short version: it's the final part of the charge cycle that results in poor efficiency. That may or may not hold true for EVs as they manage battery differently to phones. It isn't really applicable to stop-and-go charging as implemented for the taxis.

Martyn1981

Watched this last night, have to say that the 'Engineering Explained' vlogs are really good, detailed but understandable.

This one is slightly different, as he gives a rundown on pluses and minuses of a TM3 after a year. But worth a watch just for his ten reasons why we would never switch from BEV to ICE if things had worked that way round.

BTW - linking in to a recent discussion about comparing powertrains, he compares the acceleration of his car to a $200k Audi R8 V10, but then explains (refers back to) that even an early Leaf could accelerate 0-50mph faster than his supercharged Honda S2000.

Living With A Tesla Model 3 For A Year - The Best Daily Driver

Martyn1981

Extract from this week's Carbon Commentary newsletter:

2, Electric urban waste collection trucks. Waste collection routes are ideal for electric vehicles. They drive short daily distances, make multiple stops and electrification avoids adding to urban pollution and noise disturbance. Mercedes presented a modification of its eActros delivery vehicle for trial production in 2021. Los Angeles, which operates one of the largest fleets of waste collection trucks in the US, said that all its new vehicles will be zero-emissions by 2022, with full fleet conversion by 2035. Basel bought 20 electric waste trucks, based on the Volvo frame, and committed to 90% electrification of the city’s fleet of heavy vehicles by 2025.

almillar

GreatApe:

They do indirectly as they get paid hundreds of millions of dollar from ICE companies to meet regs by fleet blending

But they don't have a fleet of factories around the planet. And I think that 'indirectly' word is very important.

For real?
Why not look at model S prices in 2012 to today rather than jump total categories
How much did the model S cost in 2012? How much does it cost today?

Yes, for real. You didn't quote the bit where I said that a Model 3 couldn't have been made in 2012, because it would have been too expensive. Tesla's whole plan of starting at the top and working their way down in size and cost of model was because of the high prices of everything at the start.

I don't see the end consumer benefiting anytime soon though

Hundreds of thousands of consumers, including me, are already benefitting. The cost of entry may still be high, all shapes and sizes of vehicle are not yet catered for but that just stinks of denial. Via PCP/PCH/Leasing etc (the most popular way to drive a new car), most people aren't actually paying out all these prices you're listing anyway, for ICE, PHEV or EV. And that's what is making your £16k/£42k thing so pointless.

So while costs have fallen consumer prices have risen... significantly

I've given other examples, but you're obsessed with Tesla prices, in America. You have introduced subsidising to argue against my prices, and you're also using subsidising to argue against Tesla who don't even have anything to subidise against - 'credits from other manufacturers'. Consumer prices ARE FALLING. Not rising like you claim. 50kWh car, £25k. That did not exist 5 years ago.

EVs are clearly significantly more expensive than ICE
£43,000 v £16,000

Just stop this. It's so ludicous to compare a 'flex' (your word) car against the average price. The Model 3 is not the average price of an EV. A £25k Zoe (I'll not bother with the run-out 40kWh model) is 'a bit above average' and much more comparable to the cars in the top 10 list of best selling cars.

8,000 petrol stations in the UK
The government should just require every single petrol station to install 2 X 50KW rapid chargers

This would be great. Note there are already 12,500 odd chargers in the UK
https://www.electriciancourses4u.co.uk/blog/public-charging-points-in-the-uk-for-electric-cars/

ABrass

So pretty darn efficient. Which surprised me.

Yup, me too. Great if this is what gets deployed.

Short version: it's the final part of the charge cycle that results in poor efficiency.

What does that mean? The top 10% of the battery? Fine, just treat wireless charging like rapid charging, and do it up to 80% or whatever.


JKenH:

GA, almillar, you have both argued your cases very well (and with patience on both sides) so I think we have all got the gist of your arguments. As you are unlikely to agree and neither wants to leave arguments unanswered this could go on for a while longer yet. Could I as an outside observer intervene and suggest we draw a line under it now and neither of you need feel you are conceding any points by failing to argue further.

I would say I have enjoyed the exchange and thank you both.

OK!

GreatApe

buglawton wrote: »

6.5 mins into same video - another company claims to be achieving 90%.

What's more important the results of actual real world efficiency from the world suggest maker of actual wireless chargers or some puff piece from some VI looking to get funding and or citations?

Jury's out on this for now. For taxi ranks and delivery vans I can see a compelling use case. Particularly the taxis who in Winter sit there in the rank with their diesel engines running to keep the driver warm.

There is no use case for wireless charging
He can go out for 15 seconds and plug in/out
Or there can be a robot arm plug it in
Both of those would be cheaper and less energy losses
What exactly does wireless charging offer above and beyond a robot arm plugging in a wire?
Or even chargers and charge ports designed so you can just drive into it at slow speed

GreatApe

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Watched this last night, have to say that the 'Engineering Explained' vlogs are really good, detailed but understandable.

This one is slightly different, as he gives a rundown on pluses and minuses of a TM3 after a year. But worth a watch just for his ten reasons why we would never switch from BEV to ICE if things had worked that way round.

BTW - linking in to a recent discussion about comparing powertrains, he compares the acceleration of his car to a $200k Audi R8 V10, but then explains (refers back to) that even an early Leaf could accelerate 0-50mph faster than his supercharged Honda S2000.

Living With A Tesla Model 3 For A Year - The Best Daily Driver

At the very same price point EVs win
But they aren't the very same price point

If the world was full of Tesla model 3s at £43,000 and VW invented the ICE polo at £12,500 and the golf at £18,000 and the Tiguan at £20,000 and their other models at a range of prices which one do you think would win? Well clearly the VW at 10 million units a year not the Tesla at 0.3 million units a year

Price matters
Any discussion about range or speed or acceleration without price is pointless

VW sells many more polo at £12,500 than it does A4s at £24,000 though the latter is much nicer much faster yada yada that's all good and well but taking price into account people buy more units of cheap Polos

GreatApe

almillar wrote: »

Hundreds of thousands of consumers, including me, are already benefitting. The cost of entry may still be high, all shapes and sizes of vehicle are not yet catered for but that just stinks of denial. Via PCP/PCH/Leasing etc (the most popular way to drive a new car), most people aren't actually paying out all these prices you're listing anyway, for ICE, PHEV or EV. And that's what is making your £16k/£42k thing so pointless.

You'd should patent this idea
Just buy everything on credit
It's more affordable that way
You've found the magic money tree 🌲

I've given other examples, but you're obsessed with Tesla prices, in America. You have introduced subsidising to argue against my prices, and you're also using subsidising to argue against Tesla who don't even have anything to subidise against - 'credits from other manufacturers'. Consumer prices ARE FALLING. Not rising like you claim. 50kWh car, £25k. That did not exist 5 years ago.

The only pure EV company is Tesla
How much has the model s price fallen since 2012?
How much has the model 3 price fallen by 2017?
Zeee..rooooww ?

Just stop this. It's so ludicous to compare a 'flex' (your word) car against the average price. The Model 3 is not the average price of an EV. A £25k Zoe (I'll not bother with the run-out 40kWh model) is 'a bit above average' and much more comparable to the cars in the top 10 list of best selling cars.

The Zoe is £25,348 before government bung it is therefore nearly £29,000 pre subsidy
How is that a good deal compared to say £18,000 for a Golf?

And I'd say stick to mass market cars with production volumes of 100,000+ a year

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

At the very same price point EVs win
But they aren't the very same price point

If the world was full of Tesla model 3s at £43,000 and VW invented the ICE polo at £12,500 and the golf at £18,000 and the Tiguan at £20,000 and their other models at a range of prices which one do you think would win? Well clearly the VW at 10 million units a year not the Tesla at 0.3 million units a year

Price matters
Any discussion about range or speed or acceleration without price is pointless

VW sells many more polo at £12,500 than it does A4s at £24,000 though the latter is much nicer much faster yada yada that's all good and well but taking price into account people buy more units of cheap Polos

Someone looking for a cheap runabout isn't going to put a BMW M3 or Mercedes C63 AMG on their shopping list. These are the cars that the TM3 competes with & it's £15K cheaper.

There are plenty drivers that aspire to a car with C63/M3 performance, and for some of them, the TM3 has brought that goal a little closer.