Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

A bit more on this news:

Hyundai & KIA Invest In UK Electric Van Maker “Arrival”

Martyn1981

Great news for Tesla (and *cough* their shareholders *cough*), but globally they can't do it all on their own, so fingers still crossed for some serious increases in production/sales from the old guard.

Tesla Model 3 Sales Were Almost Triple The #2 Electric Vehicle’s Global Sales In 2019

It’s hard to put into perspective just how many purchases the Tesla Model 3 inspires worldwide. It’s sometimes hard to convey convincingly why Tesla is highlighted or mentioned on so many CleanTechnica pages. But there’s one general point everyone should understand by now: the Tesla Model 3 is in a league of its own. The Tesla Model 3 is far more popular than any electric vehicle in production today, and in some places is far more popular than any other vehicle. Monthly, quarterly, and annual sales of the Tesla Model 3 compared to other vehicles make that clear.

Demonstrating the Tesla Model 3’s unmatched consumer demand, new data from EV Volumes indicates that the Model 3 had almost triple the sales of the 2nd best selling electric vehicle on the global market in 2019. The #2 electric vehicle globally is a Chinese EV that is only sold in China. If you compare the Model 3 to the next best selling EV available in Europe and the United States, the Nissan LEAF, you can see that the Model 3 had more than 4× as many sales in 2019.

almillar

ABrass (and others):

Although apparently you may get preferential rates if your cars manufacturer has an agreement with them.

Yep, the ionity thing is a bad step IMO. Imagine going to fill your ICE car up, and the guy in front of you in the queue, who filled a BMW, pays £1 per litre, and you have to pay £2 per litre for your car! Daft. Nissan, as an example, helped out with the Ecotricity network at the start. Nissan took that on themselves, and their cars got no preferential treatment. There is, of course, a premium to be paid to fast charge on long journeys.

Martyn:

be the cost of a comparable powertrain, able to perform comparably to a TM3, and the logical leap was the M3/M5.

Understood. It's a particularly expensive, hand-built powertrain AFAIK. I think picking the next fastest 3 series or 5 series would be a 'mass market comparison'. And they'll all be forced induction now :-( - your point will be that these lesser models simply won't keep up with a Model 3, of course!

small entry level options, when comparing powertrain costs going forward

It's worse than that. He's ignoring 'drivetrain' altogether, and is comparing EV drivetrains against... generators.

GreatApe:

You can use any car supermarket website
I use carwow for comparison but there are many others out there

If you say you HAVE SEEN an A4 for that price on CarWow, I'll accept that. Have you? Can you just give references please?

A generator is an ICE

Sure is.

It's not as complex as a car engine which I already said

Stop. An ICE does not move a car. The generator is moving a clutch, gearbox etc, that a generator does not have. Please tell me, how much the gearbox in your ICE car costs. Please add that on. Please include the fuel tank, exhaust, airbox etc. Please inlcude all of the ancilliaries that actually make a car MOVE. Again, you're not comparing like for like comparing an entire EV drivetrain, including motor and battery, if you don't connect your cheap ICE engine to the wheels!! How can you continue this charade?!

But it shows how scalable and affordable ICE engines are

They sure are. I haven't argued with that. There are huge factories all over the world proving this right.

Neither of us know how much an A4 engine costs to make so we are estimating

No, you're guessing and then defending it an awful lot. I don't know, so I haven't argued with the cost of an engine, nor have I made up a number. But we are talking about the cost of building EVs, vs ICE. And you continue to bang on about the cost of the batteries, whilst avoid many major components that ICE cars contain.

So what fraction is the ICE powertrain of this £18,000?
Someone posted an article which suggested 22-24%
If we go with the mid point of that it's £4,140 for the engine and the powertrain

I don't know. But let's go with that £4,140, as long as it's 'all in' (as in connects the engine to the wheels, has an exhaust, etc.

If you do the same sums on a £13,350 car you get a cost of £2,760 for the ICE powertrain

Stop right there. Don't you know there are smaller margins on smaller cars? I think you do, because I think you've said it'll make small cheap EVs difficult.

So there is your answer. £2,760 for the most popular ICE cars sold in the UK
The estimate won't be right to the penny but it's probably within 20% of the actual figure

Not accepted. See above. You've applied the 22-24% to an Audi A4, and also to a Ford Fiesta. It ain't the same for both cars.

By comparison what does a BEV powertrain cost?

You see, I don't know, and I'm willing to accept that. Ponder that for a moment.

So an E golf costs say £6,700+Vat more than a regular golf

What if that's all just a big conspiracy by the car industry to hold EV back, and EV powertrains are already cheaper?!!! (Joking!!)

I don't think charging slowly is a problem for plug in Hybrids

But I replied to this:

Also charge and discharge rate improvements help plug in Hybrids more than BEVs

And I pointed out ONE hybrid that fast charges. The rest of them are slow, because they don't have rapid charging connectors.

I was saying rapid discharge rates help hybrids more than BEVs because rapid discharge can allow small packs to give lots of HP. This isn't necessarily but it's an advantage when it eventually comes.

That's true, they would. But BEV will get the same improvements, and your statement is just another 'if'. The thing that you're looking for here, again, already exists. It's a supercapicitor in between the battery and the motor. Fills and empties rapidly, and can do far more often than Li-Ion batteries.

That's pretty good. But imagine the same 10KWh able to discharge at twice that amount it would allow a 10KWh pack hybrid to have 200HP electric motor

Imagine. Brill. Imagine flying cars. Imagine loads of stuff. Doesn't make an Auris hybrid any more of a replacement for a BEV. Let me know how it goes with replacing Li-Ion with a completely different technology. Meanwhile, BEVs will continue to get cheaper and better.

pile-o-stone

You've put a lot of effort into that reply to GA, almillar but I fear it will be wasted. GA is our resident troll and so if you pull apart his posts or ask for proof behind his assertions, he will simply 'ghost' out of the conversation, wait a few days and then start again with the same rhetoric that you've just discredited. In the end you'll just pop him on ignore like most of the forum and will only see his posts when they're quoted by people who have yet to realise the futility of trying to engage in discussion with him (or by people who have time to kill and want to have a laugh at his mad ideas )

Solarchaser

^^made me laugh, cos it is 100% true

GreatApe

almillar wrote: »

Imagine. Brill. Imagine flying cars. Imagine loads of stuff.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing

Me: ICE powertrain are cheaper than EV powertrain...here is my estimate based on X y z

You: YOU DONT KNIW THST FOR SURE!!!

Me: that's why it's called an estimate

You: YOU DONT KNOW THST FOR SURE!!!!!!

Me: the exact number isn't all that relevent I'm pointing out the simple fact that compelling ICE vehicles exist from £6,700+VAT upwards and their powertrain is obviously a percentage of their cost and that percentage is well below 100% since the rest of the car or its advertising and selling isn't £0

You: YOU DONT KNIW THST FOR SURE!!!!!!!!!
YOU: BEVs will get cheaper!!!!!!1!!!

As if just saying BEVs will get cheaper is a get out of jail card for everything

Martyn1981

almillar wrote: »

Martyn:


Understood. It's a particularly expensive, hand-built powertrain AFAIK. I think picking the next fastest 3 series or 5 series would be a 'mass market comparison'. And they'll all be forced induction now :-( - your point will be that these lesser models simply won't keep up with a Model 3, of course!



It's worse than that. He's ignoring 'drivetrain' altogether, and is comparing EV drivetrains against... generators.

Yep, hard to get a 'fair' comparison.

Your comment that made me add the edit, was particularly interesting, as I'll admit to initially comparing say a Leaf to a base Focus / Astra etc, but the torque curve (not sure 'curve' is the right word for BEV's) means they perform like higher performance versions, and as tends to be the case, higher performance vehicles also get higher spec'd too, pulling the fair cost comparison (be it total cost or powertrain) well away from the entry level end of these models.

Presumably the BEV manufacturers can make them lower performance, such as Mazda has done deliberately(?) to avoid their PHEV outperforming ICE's too much, but don't need to.

Martyn1981

Start the morning with a bit of controversy perhaps:-

The only EV's that are selling well are from Tesla.

NigeWick

Martyn1981 wrote: »

The only EV's that are selling well are from Tesla.

Could it be because they're the only company making them in numbers?

Or, could it be because they're the best value at their price point?

JKenH

NigeWick wrote: »

Could it be because they're the only company making them in numbers?

Or, could it be because they're the best value at their price point?

I think Tesla win hands down on style, efficiency, range and performance. If only one could go out and buy one.

Availability is the issue on what are generally regarded as the best non Tesla BEVs, the e-Niro. and Kona. If you can live with 140mile range and most people should be able to then the widely available and cheap Nissan Leaf does most of what the e-Niro and Kona do at about two thirds of the price. Why aren’t Nissan selling more?

I think as more 50kwh plus models come to market take up of BEVs from mainstream brands will be greater.