Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Don't worry, if you think you're confused, imagine how I feel - you keep admitting that the Tesla has more performance, but then seem to argue that that's only because it's a BEV. I couldn't agree with you more.

Anyways, hopefully the TCO info posted has helped us both, certainly surprised me, and BEV's will only improve going forward.

Martyn1981

First off, no schadenfreude intended here - the vast majority of car buyers can't yet get an electric, and the fleet is vastly ICE, but, there is a slight element of irony over all the claims that BEV's won't work unless you can charge them at home .......

Perhaps interest in EV's can be filed under 'silver lining' during this miserable cloud that so many motorists are absolutely not enjoying at the moment.

UK electric car inquiries soar during fuel supply crisis

As petrol stations in parts of the UK started running out of fuel on Friday, business at Martin Miller’s electric car dealership in Guildford, Surrey, started soaring.

After what ended up being his company EV Experts busiest day ever, interest does not appear to be dying down. This week the diary is booked up with test drives and the business is low on stock.

“People buy electric cars for environmental reasons, for cost-saving reasons and because the technology’s great,” he said. “But Friday was one of those moments where people said, ‘Do you know what, this is a sign that we need to go electric’.”

While scenes of chaos play out at petrol stations across the country amid shortages, for many electric vehicle (EV) dealers the fuel crisis has led to an unexpected surge in inquiries and sales.

Matt Cleevely, the owner of Cleevely Electric Vehicles in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, which specialises in used EVs, had a surge of inquiries over the weekend and on Monday morning from customers citing the fuel crisis as a reason for switching to electric.

He expects enthusiasm to continue rising, with petrol shortages adding “fuel to the fire”.

Although he feels sorry for non-EV drivers who have been unable to get fuel, he said that as an electric car owner it was “very nice” not to have to worry about where to get petrol at the weekend.

“It’s very convenient that we’ve been able to just fuel up on our driveway. It’s one of the biggest pros of having an electric vehicle.”

Memory tickler!

Just a thought, but the article mentions low emission zones, and it reminded me that Bristol was supposed to introduce a ban on diesel cars operating in part of the inner city. I've heard two different versions, one that they can only operate between 9am and 2pm (when kids are in school) and another version that they can't operate between 7am and 3pm!

Whether or not all these rules, regs, laws etc come into force, it can't be good news for diesel.

shinytop

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

the TM3 is a more performance vehicle than the Lexus you picked. 

I disagree that the (standard) TM3 is a performance car.
What is the criteria you use for "performance"?

IMO, the TM3 is just a family saloon that happens to have quick acceleration by virtue of being an EV.

Hiya. Only my opinion of course, but when buying cars if you choose the version of a model that has more power and performance, you will pay more than lower versions. Hence why I've mentioned that in comparing the two vehicles you have chosen, the TM3 is a higher performance vehicle. And if you want to go higher performance than that, then it'll cost you another £8k, 9.5k or £19k, so performance has a price. Higher performance Lexi are also available, but you may have to pay more.

Yes it does have quick acceleration by virtue of being an EV, more than the lower performance Lexus, as I've mentioned. Do the benefits of being a BEV not count in a comparison of BEV's to ICEV's?

Matching EVs and ICE cars by their 0-60 times to justify EVs being more expensive is a good example of man-maths.   Apart from being largely irrelevant on public roads, EVs are inherently faster off the mark so it's likely to be a biased comparison.

It's a bit like comparing matching cars through range.  A Toyota Aygo has a range of about 350 miles so why not match that to a Tesla M3LR, which has the same range and see which has a cheaper TCO?  Range is one of the benefits of being an ICE after all.  And it's a lot more relevant that 0-60 times.

Teslas are premium class cars; just compare the average M3 with the average BMW, Merc or whatever, that's the same class. It can't be that hard. 
 

Martyn1981

shinytop said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

the TM3 is a more performance vehicle than the Lexus you picked. 

I disagree that the (standard) TM3 is a performance car.
What is the criteria you use for "performance"?

IMO, the TM3 is just a family saloon that happens to have quick acceleration by virtue of being an EV.

Hiya. Only my opinion of course, but when buying cars if you choose the version of a model that has more power and performance, you will pay more than lower versions. Hence why I've mentioned that in comparing the two vehicles you have chosen, the TM3 is a higher performance vehicle. And if you want to go higher performance than that, then it'll cost you another £8k, 9.5k or £19k, so performance has a price. Higher performance Lexi are also available, but you may have to pay more.

Yes it does have quick acceleration by virtue of being an EV, more than the lower performance Lexus, as I've mentioned. Do the benefits of being a BEV not count in a comparison of BEV's to ICEV's?

Matching EVs and ICE cars by their 0-60 times to justify EVs being more expensive is a good example of man-maths.   Apart from being largely irrelevant on public roads, EVs are inherently faster off the mark so it's likely to be a biased comparison.

It's a bit like comparing matching cars through range.  A Toyota Aygo has a range of about 350 miles so why not match that to a Tesla M3LR, which has the same range and see which has a cheaper TCO?  Range is one of the benefits of being an ICE after all.  And it's a lot more relevant that 0-60 times.

Teslas are premium class cars; just compare the average M3 with the average BMW, Merc or whatever, that's the same class. It can't be that hard. 
 

Hiya, I think you misunderstood, I was trying to match the variants being compared, or where that's not possible, or you don't want to go up to another model, you must allow for some price differential due to the different performance on offer. Otherwise you'll be using man-maths to justify the ICEV.

And yes, of course the BEV's will have higher performance, which of course pushes prices up when you are buying ICEV's, to allow for a fairer comparison.* But it is interesting how the extra power and more responsive acceleration of BEV's seems to be being dismissed by some on the grounds that that's because they are BEV's. Bit weird that, dismissing the benefits of a BEV when discussing BEV benefits.

* Try this theoretical (to avoid going to a more expensive Lexus model). If the Lexus ES model being discussed offered a more powerful version, say 250bhp for a few thousand pounds more, wouldn't that be a fairer comparison here? Or if the TM3 came in a cheaper lower performance offering, wouldn't that be a fairer comparison? After all, I'm sure you'll agree with me that getting the closest and fairest comparison is important in a situation like this.



I totally agree that the BMW (for example) allows for a more comparable example, and I think the BMW 330e is a fair comparison against the TM3 SR+, and the Beemer is only about £1k more at £42k(ish).

[Edit - No, thinking about it, perhaps that's not the fairest comparison, sorry. Maybe the 320i M is a better match, at about £37k. M.]

I think the problem we've seen here the last day or so, is that it's tricky to find fair comparisons, for instance we haven't even mentioned that the Tesla's come with all the hardware necessary for FSD, and of course lower spec BEV's at lower prices are also available from an ever growing range. But that's OK, as the TCO work looks to have been done for us already, which was great to see.

Martyn1981

Perhaps not worth posting August results when we are at the end of Sept, but I enjoyed a quick recap, and a look at the growth of the BEV percentage, ready for what I suspect will be a very strong Sept, then final quarter for 2021.

Plugin Vehicles Hit 22% Market Share In Europe In August!

With plugin registrations rising fast and the overall market shrinking significantly, plugin vehicle market share had to rise significantly, and it did. Last month’s plugin vehicle share of the overall European auto market was 22% (12% full electrics/BEVs), which pulled the 2021 plugin vehicle (PEV) share to 17% (8% for BEVs alone).

Growth came from both plugin fields, with BEVs (+72% YoY) outrunning PHEVs (+47%) this time, allowing them to represent the majority of registrations in August (56% vs 44%). So, pure electrics should surpass plugin hybrid registrations by the end of the year, especially considering that September should represent another strong month for BEVs thanks to the Tesla end-of-quarter peak. The ongoing BEV push from Volkswagen Group and others (Renault, Ford) will help them to overcome PHEVs as well.

Martyn1981

Impressive plans from Ford, who fingers crossed, are now starting to grasp the EV nettle. Plans for battery production for about 1m+ BEV's pa.


Ford announces giant new electric pickup truck factory plus three new battery gigafactories

Ford made a massive announcement today about accelerating electric vehicle production with a giant new factory to produce electric pickup trucks in Tennessee and three new battery gigafactories.

Ford and SK plan to invest over $11 billion to deploy this new production capacity and employ 11,000 people (6,000 at Blue Oval City and 5,000 at the two battery factories in Kentucky).

They plan for the three battery factories to produce 129 GWh of battery cells per year for Ford’s production of electric vehicles.

They plan to start battery production and production of their next-gen electric pickup trucks in 2025.

And Elon stressing how stressful things will be this week/end of quarter.


Elon Musk: ‘This will be Tesla’s (TSLA) most intense delivery week ever’

Elon Musk said that this week will be Tesla’s (TSLA) “most intense delivery week ever” in a new email to employees.

In a short email to employees over the weekend and obtained by Electrek, Tesla CEO Elon Musk thanked Tesla workers for the “hardcore delivery push.”

Tesla has been known to have intense end-of-quarter delivery pushes due to its distribution system, which is very different from other automakers that use third-party dealerships.

Since Tesla sells directly to customers, the automaker owns the vehicle until it is fully delivered to the buyer and paid for.
It results in transit times being extremely important for Tesla financially since the automaker takes on the cost of building those cars and doesn’t get any money until the customers can actually pick them up.

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Hiya, I think you misunderstood, I was trying to match the variants being compared, or where that's not possible, or you don't want to go up to another model, you must allow for some price differential due to the different performance on offer. Otherwise you'll be using man-maths to justify the ICEV.

* Try this theoretical (to avoid going to a more expensive Lexus model). If the Lexus ES model being discussed offered a more powerful version, say 250bhp for a few thousand pounds more, wouldn't that be a fairer comparison here? Or if the TM3 came in a cheaper lower performance offering, wouldn't that be a fairer comparison? After all, I'm sure you'll agree with me that getting the closest and fairest comparison is important in a situation like this.

The "performance" (single-parameter acceleration) of the EV offers little real-world benefit.

In the comparison on the Lexus ES (one engine size), the comparison was as like-for-like as pragmatic could be. 
Lexus Premium edition to add the extra equipment closer to the Tesla.  
Tesla cheapest entry level vehicle with no extras.

You mention the Tesla having FSD hardware, but to activate that requires ticking an option box for several £k, so the comments seem irrelevant.

Perhaps, we have to accept that there simply is no competitor to Tesla?

Another way to do the comparison would be something like the Lexus ES (£32k after incentive) versus the MG5 LR Executive (£29k after incentive unless NHS where the incentive is larger).  So, matched on price.  Trouble is, showroom appeal of the "premium" challenger brand larger saloon product versus more budget challenger brand smaller estate does not result in comparable cars.

Maybe the comparison can only be by comparing ICE versus EV of the same vehicle, for example Corsa vs Corsa?

You have still not answered where the extra capital outlay of the EV ever gets eaten up?  Someone, in the life of the vehicle, has to take this cost.  

Martyn1981

Hiya Grumpy, sorry but again I think you've misunderstood. I'm sure if the ICEV had better performance, with more confident driving for roundabouts, junctions, less lumpy driving etc, then you'd see that as a plus over the BEV, so of course we have to try to compare like for like, and allow for some value up or down.

Regarding the FSD, again your comment seems strange. The kit is there and has value, since FSD can be added at any time (at a high cost I agree). So spec wise the Tesla has some additional value for some/many.

All I've done is suggest that the Lexus ES you used in the comparison, which I do think is a good choice, is not a completely exact match, for which the TM3 should get some value 'bonus points'. Why wouldn't we want to be fair.

No idea why you are going down the Tesla has no competition route. I agreed with you that the BMW M5 was probably a fair match to the TM3P, and for lower value ICEV's, there are many lower value BEV's that seem comparable.

The TCO report seems to suggest that the TCO issue is in favour of BEV's, and in fact seems to suggest that the TM3 doesn't compare as well, which is a great balancing point.

Yep regarding the Corsa v's Corsa issue, that's another good approach, and I believe QrizB has tried to address your point a few times.

Regarding the difference in values, I keep pointing out that that comes under depreciation, I think the TCO report also addresses this. I'm not sure why you think this is being ignored, as the whole premise of the discussion was, I thought, that the lower running costs of a BEV make up for the price differential - again as explained in that TCO report.

BTW, you didn't get back about your daily mileage, which seemed to be in excess of 250 miles, is that correct. As of course in your example you'd need to increase the fuel and servicing costs significantly, and I'd have thought paying a bit more for a Supercharger on the additional miles you need, v's stepping up to a TM3LR, may be a much better financial solution, and significantly shift the economics of the Lexus v's Tesla TM3.


Sorry if you feel I'm simply defending the Tesla, I have been trying to explain how other BEV's exist, and others have also mentioned that the higher torque of a BEV is a benefit and pleasure to driving.


PS - Perhaps something is being lost in translation, and also our attempts to find fair comparisons will always be flawed to a degree, since we can chat about positives and negatives all day without necessarily coming to an exact agreement.

So going back to the very start of this, the point was I believe that the higher initial outlay for a BEV will (or can?) be gained back thanks to the lower running costs (which include depreciation). And that issue seems, at the very least to be leaning in favour of BEV's now/or going forward. Hope that seems fair and acceptable.

Martyn1981

Can't decide if this is BEV news or not. I suppose it might be as the impact of higher ICEV prices will, as we've discussed before, help to nudge the needle a bit further towards BEV's, and away from ICE's.

Car Industry “Dirty Tricks” Seek To Derail Tough EU Emissions Standards

The European car industry is using aggressive lobbying and making unsubstantiated claims in an attempt to derail EU plans to cut pollution from road transport, campaign group Transport & Environment (T&E) revealed in a briefing paper last week.

It warns that citizens’ health will suffer for decades if the industry succeeds in watering down proposed new standards on emissions from cars, vans, buses and trucks. Euro 7 will set legal limits for nearly 100 million petrol and diesel cars that will be sold in the EU after 2025, when it comes into force.[1]

Road transport emissions are a major source of air pollution, causing a wide range of serious illnesses including heart and lung diseases and cancer. Every year in the EU road transport pollution is responsible for tens of thousands of premature deaths,[2] costing society tens of billions in health costs.[3] Poor air disproportionately impacts low income households and minorities.

By contrast, the European Commission estimates that adopting cleaner emissions technology to meet Euro 7 standards would add between €100 and €500 to the price of a car[4] — less than a paint upgrade on an entry level car model such as the VW Golf or Ford Fiesta, which can cost over €700. For trucks, compliance would add less than 1% to the total cost of ownership over five years.

In 2020 alone, the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA), Volkswagen, Daimler and BMW spent almost €9 million lobbying in Brussels.[5] Earlier this year ACEA launched a public campaign against Euro 7, making unsubstantiated claims that the legislation would amount to a ban on the internal combustion engine.[6]

The industry argues that Euro 7 will cost too much and is not technically feasible, but T&E’s paper notes that emissions control technology has progressed significantly since 2008, when the current Euro 6 standards were agreed. For example, e-catalysts, which can drastically reduce emissions when the engine is first started, and vacuum aspiration, which reduces dangerous particle emissions from brakes, are both viable and affordable.

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Can't decide if this is BEV news or not. I suppose it might be as the impact of higher ICEV prices will, as we've discussed before, help to nudge the needle a bit further towards BEV's, and away from ICE's.

This could well be entirely irrelevant.

EURO 7 does not come in until 2025, by which time I doubt any manufacturer will be launching or investing in anything for ICE vehicles.

In fact, I am surprised that new model ranges are still being launched today that do not include EV versions.  The smart thing for a manufacturer to do would be only design new vehicles as EVs and only offer the ICE version if that can be fitted into the EV design.  

By 2025, we will be reaching the point that the only ICE vehicles for main-stream are run-out technologies as the manufacturers squeeze every last drop of value from the technology.