Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Timely article today, with Ford explaining how they need to bring down the price of BEV's, and Audi selling one for less than the ICE.

Things are moving fast, and yes, of course, I'm enjoying the show and revolution(s).

Ford CEO Calls For Lower EV Prices, Audi Q4 E-Tron Costs Less Than Q5

Farley added, “The first generation of electric owners don’t work small commuter, economy cars. They want Mustangs, they want pickup trucks, they want utility vans. They want the best products. The F-150 Lightning is completely sold out in Europe, in the U.S, in China. We have 150,000 orders and the truck isn’t just fast, it’s very fast, but it can power your house for three days. I think this will really change electrification.”

Ford recently reported that its average transaction price in August hit a new record of approximately $50,800 per vehicle, a $9,700 increase over last year. So much for electric cars costing too much, huh?

Picking up on that “electric cars are too expensive” complaint, Audi announced this week that its Q4 40 e-tron electric SUV will start at $44,995, including a $1,095 delivery charge. That, dear reader, is $200 less than Audi’s similarly sized Q5 conventional SUV.

gefnew

This may help with tco questions.
Total cost of ownership of EVs | LeasePlan
Maybe a long read.

Martyn1981

I'll admit to having been reluctant to mentioning this vehicle, as it's really a quadracycle, or at least the model sold in China is/was. But now we are discussing prices, especially at the cheap end, it may be worth a "chat".

But, there are plans to upgrade it in power, battery and safety (hmmmm, that's what concerns me), reclassing it as a 'car' and sell in Europe, for around €10k.

So, over to the Wuling Mini EV. But I can't find any decent articles on the recent plans. I'm sure they are out there, just being a bit short sighted today, so here's an article on a version to be sold in Europe, but I think this a modified version of the base Chinese car, not the newer upgraded version, since this article mentions the ~14kWh battery, but the newer one will have ~26kWh and possibly something like 150 miles given how small and light it is. So this article is just to set the scene.

[BTW - Just a fun fact regarding the Chinese model/sales, apparently Wuling only make about $24 profit per vehicle but make their money on Gov credits, which are around $500-$1,000 per vehicle.]

Wuling MINI EV Introduced In Europe As FreZe Nikrob

Martyn1981

gefnew said:

This may help with tco questions.
Total cost of ownership of EVs | LeasePlan
Maybe a long read.

Ok, opportunity for everyone to laugh at me for changing my 'story' and position, but am I mis-understanding something about the date there, is it really nearly 3yrs ago, as I wouldn't have expected the numbers to come out so well for BEV's back then?

Not complaining, but am I missing something? Is it do with subsidies, or various benefits in kind? The leasing factor? I'm a tad shocked.

Whilst I may disagree with Grumpy, and believe that things lean in favour of BEV's today, akin to the scenario ratio in that report (508:404), I'd kinda (gulp) be just as unsure of such figures back then, as he may be today?

What was it I said a while back, about how even my annoyingly optimistic outlook for G&E issues and technology, always seems to be beaten by reality!

JKenH

gefnew said:

This may help with tco questions.
Total cost of ownership of EVs | LeasePlan
Maybe a long read.

It is interesting that although in the UK the EV has the lower TCO in 90% of scenarios take up has been much slower than in Norway where the EV is cheaper in only 85% of scenarios. I wonder why that is. 

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

the TM3 is a more performance vehicle than the Lexus you picked. 

I disagree that the (standard) TM3 is a performance car.
What is the criteria you use for "performance"?

IMO, the TM3 is just a family saloon that happens to have quick acceleration by virtue of being an EV.

Martyn1981

Not one of my favourite channels, but the first half of this news episode covers the call in the US for a Toyota boycott.

As the guest contributor points out, if you can't buy a BEV from Toyota, then it's easy to boycott them.

Plus coverage of the very definition of 'irony' that many may have already heard of - After a modified roof on a Tesla came off, Ford took the mick out of Tesla, claiming that their roofs don't come off, but have now issued a recall for some of their Mach-E's due to roofs and windscreens potentially coming loose.

Anti-EV TOYOTA Facing Another Boycott | EV News

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

the TM3 is a more performance vehicle than the Lexus you picked. 

I disagree that the (standard) TM3 is a performance car.
What is the criteria you use for "performance"?

IMO, the TM3 is just a family saloon that happens to have quick acceleration by virtue of being an EV.

Hiya. Only my opinion of course, but when buying cars if you choose the version of a model that has more power and performance, you will pay more than lower versions. Hence why I've mentioned that in comparing the two vehicles you have chosen, the TM3 is a higher performance vehicle. And if you want to go higher performance than that, then it'll cost you another £8k, 9.5k or £19k, so performance has a price. Higher performance Lexi are also available, but you may have to pay more.

Yes it does have quick acceleration by virtue of being an EV, more than the lower performance Lexus, as I've mentioned. Do the benefits of being a BEV not count in a comparison of BEV's to ICEV's?

silverwhistle

Grumpy_chap said:

What is the criteria you use for "performance"?

What are _your_ criteria?  I'm not a hypermiler type but very much (until now) spend as little on cars as possible, so I have no criteria by which to judge. I would say that my MG is certainly the liveliest car I've ever had from the point of view of acceleration, and I could certainly break the law easily enough. If I wanted to have fun driving a car it certainly wouldn't be on the public roads.

Perhaps I just need a recording of a throaty, slightly noisy exhaust since that seems to be one of the criteria locally!

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Hiya. Only my opinion of course, but when buying cars if you choose the version of a model that has more power and performance, you will pay more than lower versions. Hence why I've mentioned that in comparing the two vehicles you have chosen, the TM3 is a higher performance vehicle. And if you want to go higher performance than that, then it'll cost you another £8k or £19k, so performance has a price. Higher performance Lexi are also available, but you may have to pay more.

This is where I am confused, you see.

In the comparison, I have used the Lexus ES Premium Edition versus the TM3 SR.  It was to try to get the two vehicles as close as pragmatic comparison could.

As far as I can make out, the Lexus ES is only available in one engine choice and the "sport" versions are only trim, suspension tweaks and different wheels.  218 BHP (ICE plus EV together).

Tesla don't seem to quote BHP on their website (perhaps I am missing the obvious) but an internet search brought up a spec in Parkers quoting 241 BHP for the TM3 SR.  A bit more than the Lexus, but not substantially.

In doing the comparison, I purposefully added the Premium version of the Lexus to make the equipment level more comparable to the Tesla.

I have tried to make the comparison as fair as possible - these are both family sized saloon cars from "challenger" brand manufacturers.  Both appeal to the "green" brigade marketeers more than a diesel.  I certainly cannot see that the TM3 SR is specifically a more "performance" vehicle - the higher acceleration is simply a function of how electric motors work.

On the cost comparison, I would expect an EV to show greater reliability but (oddly) Tesla only offer a fairly minimal warranty.  Particularly unexpected as I understand that warranties in USA tend to be far more generous than in European markets.  

Servicing costs may be lower for an EV but, even if the actual effort and parts are less, I would not be surprised if actual servicing costs are not market-price near to ICE rates.