Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

QrizB said:

Just as an aside, I'm struck by how US vehicle manufacturers are all in the 300+ g CO2/mile band while the EU target stated upthread is 95 g/km, roughly 150 g/mile.

Yeah, not great. But that's what happens when you have really cheap 'gas', it's easier to just build bigger engines, than go high tech - 'there's no substitute for cubes' as the saying used to go - my Firebird had a 400 cubic inch V8 engine (6.6lt), but with all the emissions regs from the 70's, only put out a measly 230bhp.

Also in the US they have lower fuel efficiency standards for larger, heavier vehicles, which makes very little sense, since manufacturers benefit from going a bit bigger and heavier.

But it does go to show why the CO2(e) savings from moving to BEV's is so great for them, especially now that transport is one of (or is now ) the worst sectors for emissions as they slowly start to transition their grid away from FF's.

orrery

JKenH said:

I think we just need to rein back on this perspective that Toyota are the bad boys in the vehicle emissions world. I know it’s a story that CleanTechnica keep pushing but really are they any worse than the other manufacturers?

C'mon. This is the company that introduced the concept of the "Self-Charging Hybrid". Their salesmen were hyping up the concept to the point where one purchaser approached an EV owner to warn him that he'd need to swap his EV to the new updated technology soon. Even the Toyota video ads showed a cartoon of the Self-charging hybrid cruising past an EV connecting to a charger and telling the viewer that this new technology didn't need plugging in.

Toyota have bet the farm on hydrogen and seem to have been taken by surprise as purchasers buy EVs because they are better. Why would anyone buy a FCEV when it costs more, and doesn't offer any fuel savings?

JKenH

Toyota has not bet the farm on HFC. It has invested heavily in it but it is also investing in BEVs  and hoping to develop solid state batteries while dominating the hybrid and ICE market. 

HFCs may not be the way to go for private cars but It is still being promoted for commercial vehicles and Toyota’s expertise in this area may pay dividends (or it might not)

https://www.autonews.com/china/toyota-bets-fuel-cell-future-faw-other-automakers

I just don’t understand why everyone is so convinced they know better than Toyota. The real problem, I suspect is that Toyota continue to be successful despite not dancing to the preferred tune of the eco-zealots. - the naysayers are being proved wrong and the more aggressive they are becoming because of that. 

Toyota are a bit like Tesla in that regard. Tesla have made a success of what they do despite being told they wouldn’t. That annoys a lot of people who want Tesla to fail. (Yes really some people are so bitter and twisted).  I think Tesla do a good job of making cars  people want and so does Toyota. Good luck to both of them. 

In an ideal world I would have a TM3 and a Yaris. My wife doesn’t agree unfortunately. 

EVandPV

orrery said:

JKenH said:

I think we just need to rein back on this perspective that Toyota are the bad boys in the vehicle emissions world. I know it’s a story that CleanTechnica keep pushing but really are they any worse than the other manufacturers?

C'mon. This is the company that introduced the concept of the "Self-Charging Hybrid". Their salesmen were hyping up the concept to the point where one purchaser approached an EV owner to warn him that he'd need to swap his EV to the new updated technology soon. Even the Toyota video ads showed a cartoon of the Self-charging hybrid cruising past an EV connecting to a charger and telling the viewer that this new technology didn't need plugging in.

.......   

Grumpy_chap

orrery said:

 Why would anyone buy a FCEV when it costs more, and doesn't offer any fuel savings?

At present, it is the capital outlay for like-for-like vehicles.

If I were to buy an EV, it would be TM3 LR - around £50k or the MG5 LR (around £30k)  Few incentives available (noted the MG "affinity" scheme, but I would not qualify.

An equivalent ICE to the TM3 might well be the Lexus ES Premium, around £32k after scrappage offers.

The Lexus and the TM3 both pitch as "premium" whereas the MG pitches as "mid-range" (some might say that is being generous).

So, on the comparison, the EV has to make up the best part of £20k in reduced running costs to reach break even.  It may then return a better residual value but, for someone like me that keeps cars until they are deceased, residual value is always nominal.

I could add the full range of regular (rather than hybrid) ICE's, but then the cost justification for the EV only gets worse.

JKenH

Toyota to spend $13.5 bln to develop electric vehicle battery tech by 2030

Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T)said on Tuesday it expected to spend more than $13.5 billion by 2030 to develop batteries and its battery supply system, in a bid to take a lead in the key automotive technology over the next decade.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-spend-over-135-bln-ev-batteries-by-2030-2021-09-07/

And it wouldn’t surprise me if it did take the lead.

Edit:original article was replaced with a better source.

michaels

Grumpy_chap said:

orrery said:

 Why would anyone buy a FCEV when it costs more, and doesn't offer any fuel savings?

At present, it is the capital outlay for like-for-like vehicles.

If I were to buy an EV, it would be TM3 LR - around £50k or the MG5 LR (around £30k)  Few incentives available (noted the MG "affinity" scheme, but I would not qualify.

An equivalent ICE to the TM3 might well be the Lexus ES Premium, around £32k after scrappage offers.

The Lexus and the TM3 both pitch as "premium" whereas the MG pitches as "mid-range" (some might say that is being generous).

So, on the comparison, the EV has to make up the best part of £20k in reduced running costs to reach break even.  It may then return a better residual value but, for someone like me that keeps cars until they are deceased, residual value is always nominal.

I could add the full range of regular (rather than hybrid) ICE's, but then the cost justification for the EV only gets worse.

I thought the MG5 LR was available from 25k with the gov and dealer incentives?

Grumpy_chap

michaels said:

I thought the MG5 LR was available from 25k with the gov and dealer incentives?

Yep, "from £25" for the poverty spec short range.  IF I were to get one, it would be the LR Exclusive, £29k after grant.

I was trying top make the comparison as much "like-for-like" as I could.  In my post, the TM3 versus the Lexus ES is probably the fairer part of the comparison in terms of the actual car.  Then again, the equivalent price point is the Lexus ES (premium model after incentive £32k) versus the £29k MG5 (no incentive available if not eligible for the affinity scheme).

Otherwise, let's compare the Audi e-tron GT with the Dacia Sandero and then make the leap that EV is too expensive and see how the bullets fly.

michaels

Grumpy_chap said:

michaels said:

I thought the MG5 LR was available from 25k with the gov and dealer incentives?

Yep, "from £25" for the poverty spec short range.  IF I were to get one, it would be the LR Exclusive, £29k after grant.

I was trying top make the comparison as much "like-for-like" as I could.  In my post, the TM3 versus the Lexus ES is probably the fairer part of the comparison in terms of the actual car.  Then again, the equivalent price point is the Lexus ES (premium model after incentive £32k) versus the £29k MG5 (no incentive available if not eligible for the affinity scheme).

Otherwise, let's compare the Audi e-tron GT with the Dacia Sandero and then make the leap that EV is too expensive and see how the bullets fly.

There is an immediate extra 750 off via a test drive voucher, a couple of months ago they were available for about 26k with incentives but I just asked carwow and nothing come through at that level yet.

JKenH

12 Best-Selling Electric Vehicles of 2021 (So Far)

Tesla totally dominate this market with the TM3 and Model Y but the fact they do maybe says something about the EV market in the US. I suspect that people desire a Tesla more than they desire an EV. (Wait for the comments)

Good to see the Nissan Leaf hanging in there in 5th place despite all the bad press it gets for lack of a BMS. 

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g36278968/best-selling-evs-of-2021/