Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

Martyn1981

Keep_pedalling said:

Grumpy_chap said:

orrery said:

 Why would anyone buy a FCEV when it costs more, and doesn't offer any fuel savings?

At present, it is the capital outlay for like-for-like vehicles.

If I were to buy an EV, it would be TM3 LR - around £50k or the MG5 LR (around £30k)  Few incentives available (noted the MG "affinity" scheme, but I would not qualify.

An equivalent ICE to the TM3 might well be the Lexus ES Premium, around £32k after scrappage offers.

The Lexus and the TM3 both pitch as "premium" whereas the MG pitches as "mid-range" (some might say that is being generous).

So, on the comparison, the EV has to make up the best part of £20k in reduced running costs to reach break even.  It may then return a better residual value but, for someone like me that keeps cars until they are deceased, residual value is always nominal.

I could add the full range of regular (rather than hybrid) ICE's, but then the cost justification for the EV only gets worse.

I have just gone from Golf GTE to ID3. Similar size, spec and performance with very little difference in price

Yep, and at the higher priced end, it seems the 'BEV's cost more' excuse is starting to collapse:

Mercedes EQS Starting Price Is Lower Than Gas S-Class Starting Price

Mercedes has just exploded the myth that electric cars are more expensive than their gas-powered equivalents. This week, it released pricing and specifications for the EQS coming to the US next year, and here’s the takeaway: The starting price for the EQS is $103,360, including a destination charge. The least expensive S-Class costs $110,850, including the destination charge.

Yes, we know. Nobody needs a Mercedes S-Class or an EQS. What we need are electric cars that sell for closer to $20,000. But let’s be grateful for small favors, shall we? At least now when some smarty pants says electric cars cost twice as much as conventional cars (someone actually wrote that in a comment to a story last week!), we can counter such nonsense with facts.

Martyn1981

Freemont Police Department continues its trials of hybrids and BEV's with a pretty mean looking TMY.

And when it comes to 'pushing' with those big bars, I'm guessing no ICEV comes even close to the low speed torque available from that twin motor AWD BEV.

Fremont Police Department Adds Tesla Model Y To Its Fleet

The Fremont Police Department has added another Tesla to its fleet, this one is a Model Y. In the department’s latest post, it noted that the Model Y became its latest addition in its hybrid and electric fleet of over 40 vehicles.

“Compared to the Tesla Model S 85 deployed in 2019, the Tesla Model Y can last one to two patrol shifts on one charge and reaches an additional 61 miles per charge while maintaining the same projected ownership costs.”

CKhalvashi

Martyn1981 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

Grumpy_chap said:

orrery said:

 Why would anyone buy a FCEV when it costs more, and doesn't offer any fuel savings?

At present, it is the capital outlay for like-for-like vehicles.

If I were to buy an EV, it would be TM3 LR - around £50k or the MG5 LR (around £30k)  Few incentives available (noted the MG "affinity" scheme, but I would not qualify.

An equivalent ICE to the TM3 might well be the Lexus ES Premium, around £32k after scrappage offers.

The Lexus and the TM3 both pitch as "premium" whereas the MG pitches as "mid-range" (some might say that is being generous).

So, on the comparison, the EV has to make up the best part of £20k in reduced running costs to reach break even.  It may then return a better residual value but, for someone like me that keeps cars until they are deceased, residual value is always nominal.

I could add the full range of regular (rather than hybrid) ICE's, but then the cost justification for the EV only gets worse.

I have just gone from Golf GTE to ID3. Similar size, spec and performance with very little difference in price

Yep, and at the higher priced end, it seems the 'BEV's cost more' excuse is starting to collapse:

Mercedes EQS Starting Price Is Lower Than Gas S-Class Starting Price

Mercedes has just exploded the myth that electric cars are more expensive than their gas-powered equivalents. This week, it released pricing and specifications for the EQS coming to the US next year, and here’s the takeaway: The starting price for the EQS is $103,360, including a destination charge. The least expensive S-Class costs $110,850, including the destination charge.

Yes, we know. Nobody needs a Mercedes S-Class or an EQS. What we need are electric cars that sell for closer to $20,000. But let’s be grateful for small favors, shall we? At least now when some smarty pants says electric cars cost twice as much as conventional cars (someone actually wrote that in a comment to a story last week!), we can counter such nonsense with facts.

Even at the mid end this is the case. The EQS is a little out of my price range however, even though they seem very good engineering.

I challenge you to find something similar petrol of a similar size to the Ioniq that is cheaper to run over 3 years/30k miles, that has automatic gearbox, heated leather seats (rarely used but I'm getting old and occasionally it's good for the back), cruise control, navigation etc, just to make sure we're talking similar specs (It's the Premium SE spec).

I very much doubt you will, likely even more so when buying on finance (can't vouch for this as mine is owned outright) and even if a top end Astra/Focus/Golf etc comes in a little cheaper to start.

shinytop

QrizB said:

shinytop said:

EricMears said:

QrizB said:

Petrol prices are up ~30% on the year, too. My motorbike gets 110mpg (5p/mile, similar to a BEV) but it's getting to the end of the biking season.

Wimp !
I got to the end of my biking days many years ago but when I was biking,  there was no such thing as a 'season'.  When it got cold I wore electrically heated gloves and when really cold I had other electrically heated garments.

I want to know how QrizB's bike gets 110mpg!  Mine gets 45 if I'm careful. I'm with him on the seasons though, my heated grips are good but not that good.  

I'm definitely a wimp, that's why my Fiat Panda has DIY heated seats

And the bike is one of these:

https://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/yamaha/ybr_125

That would explain it.  Mine is one of these

https://www.fuelly.com/motorcycle/bmw/s1000xr

Martyn1981

CKhalvashi said:

Martyn1981 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

Grumpy_chap said:

orrery said:

 Why would anyone buy a FCEV when it costs more, and doesn't offer any fuel savings?

At present, it is the capital outlay for like-for-like vehicles.

If I were to buy an EV, it would be TM3 LR - around £50k or the MG5 LR (around £30k)  Few incentives available (noted the MG "affinity" scheme, but I would not qualify.

An equivalent ICE to the TM3 might well be the Lexus ES Premium, around £32k after scrappage offers.

The Lexus and the TM3 both pitch as "premium" whereas the MG pitches as "mid-range" (some might say that is being generous).

So, on the comparison, the EV has to make up the best part of £20k in reduced running costs to reach break even.  It may then return a better residual value but, for someone like me that keeps cars until they are deceased, residual value is always nominal.

I could add the full range of regular (rather than hybrid) ICE's, but then the cost justification for the EV only gets worse.

I have just gone from Golf GTE to ID3. Similar size, spec and performance with very little difference in price

Yep, and at the higher priced end, it seems the 'BEV's cost more' excuse is starting to collapse:

Mercedes EQS Starting Price Is Lower Than Gas S-Class Starting Price

Mercedes has just exploded the myth that electric cars are more expensive than their gas-powered equivalents. This week, it released pricing and specifications for the EQS coming to the US next year, and here’s the takeaway: The starting price for the EQS is $103,360, including a destination charge. The least expensive S-Class costs $110,850, including the destination charge.

Yes, we know. Nobody needs a Mercedes S-Class or an EQS. What we need are electric cars that sell for closer to $20,000. But let’s be grateful for small favors, shall we? At least now when some smarty pants says electric cars cost twice as much as conventional cars (someone actually wrote that in a comment to a story last week!), we can counter such nonsense with facts.

Even at the mid end this is the case. The EQS is a little out of my price range however, even though they seem very good engineering.

I challenge you to find something similar petrol of a similar size to the Ioniq that is cheaper to run over 3 years/30k miles, that has automatic gearbox, heated leather seats (rarely used but I'm getting old and occasionally it's good for the back), cruise control, navigation etc, just to make sure we're talking similar specs (It's the Premium SE spec).

I very much doubt you will, likely even more so when buying on finance (can't vouch for this as mine is owned outright) and even if a top end Astra/Focus/Golf etc comes in a little cheaper to start.

Yep, I'm a huge fan of the Ioniq, though my back is not a big fan of the seats whenever I've overdone it.

Just for fun, I've had a play on the BMW site, and I'm surprised to find the cheapest 3 series pushing into the high £30k's once you add a bit of technology. So the base TM3 is probably a price match, give or take, but a lot more power, and the 330e better matches the power, but costs more than the TM3, and only has a leccy range of 36 miles.

Then there's the small VW's, and the excellent MG's ...... prices are going to be fun by 2025, especially since falling production numbers and rising fuel economy costs will most likely push ICEV prices up, as BEV prices fall.

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

BP rations fuel deliveries to petrol stations

Oil giant forced to close some sites and warns ministers that supplies at forecourts are 'declining rapidly'

There we were, just recently, saying we have never had a problem turning up at a fuel station and filling up. How quickly things can change. 

Never say never; we just don’t know what’s around the corner. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/09/23/bp-rations-fuel-deliveries-petrol-stations/

Except this is a very rare and exceptional event.  

At best, I'd liken it to a power cut preventing the use of an EV charger.  

Certainly not a fundamental issue with built infrastructure.  With EV charging, the infrastructure is not keeping up with the growth of EV's.CKhalvashi said:

I challenge you to find something similar petrol of a similar size to the Ioniq that is cheaper to run over 3 years/30k miles, that has automatic gearbox, heated leather seats (rarely used but I'm getting old and occasionally it's good for the back), cruise control, navigation etc, just to make sure we're talking similar specs (It's the Premium SE spec).

I did post recently comparing the TM3 LR (£50k) versus the Lexus ES Premium (£32k after incentives) - both are mid-sized ("Mondeo-class") saloon cars of similar equipment specification and from "challenger" premium brands. 

I also mentioned that the price-point EV close to the Lexus ES was the MG5 LR Executive, which is also a good equipment specification but somewhat smaller ("Focus-class") family estate and from a "budget" brand.  

People leapt on the Lexus and the MG as being closely priced as evidence that the EV entry price was not an issue.  I disagree as the "premium-ness" has to be a factor.

I don't really know which Ioniq you are referring to or what size class they are to do any comparison.  You are probably correct that the total costs over three years are competitive but, for the time being, the higher capital cost is sufficient to deter many from being able to make the switch and, hence, never able to realise the lower operating costs.

Martyn1981

Not sure if these battery technologies have been mentioned recently, I lose track!

It looks (to me) like Li-ion and LFP's are doing the job for now, and getting cheaper, so the prospect of cheaper, better, safer, denser/lighter (choose your preference(s)) batts in the not too distant future, perhaps 5+yrs is really promising.

Lithium Sulfur, Lithium Carbon — Batteries Have Come A Long Way, Baby

Ready for some battery tech news? Both Lyten and MAHLE have announced new battery technology breakthroughs and neither of them is some pie-in-the-sky experiment from the laboratory that is 10 years away from production. Both promise lower costs, faster charging, and reduced flammability. Let’s take a closer look.

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

I did post recently comparing the TM3 LR (£50k) versus the Lexus ES Premium (£32k after incentives) - both are mid-sized ("Mondeo-class") saloon cars of similar equipment specification and from "challenger" premium brands. 

Can I ask where you get that price? I just checked the Lexus site for the ES300h, with the premium upgrade for a closer match on technology, and I got £37k, which isn't a million miles away from the comparable TM3 SR+ at £41k.


Edit - BTW the Hyundai IONIQ (all caps for some reason) is a mid size car, quite similar in size and shape to the TM3. I have the 28kWh model, good for 130 miles, or 150 if driven gently.

EVandPV

Martyn1981 said:

Edit - BTW the Hyundai IONIQ (all caps for some reason) is a mid size car, quite similar in size and shape to the TM3. I have the 28kWh model, good for 130 miles, or 150 if driven gently.

That's pretty damn decent for a medium sized battery !
My 40kwh Zoe does about 160 to 180 driven gently, so not a huge difference for the extra 12kwh.

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I did post recently comparing the TM3 LR (£50k) versus the Lexus ES Premium (£32k after incentives) - both are mid-sized ("Mondeo-class") saloon cars of similar equipment specification and from "challenger" premium brands. 

Can I ask where you get that price? I just checked the Lexus site for the ES300h, with the premium upgrade for a closer match on technology, and I got £37k, which isn't a million miles away from the comparable TM3 SR+ at £41k.


Edit - BTW the Hyundai IONIQ (all caps for some reason) is a mid size car, quite similar in size and shape to the TM3. I have the 28kWh model, good for 130 miles, or 150 if driven gently.

Lexus ES Premium Edition = OTR List Price £36,555.00.
Incentive on the "offers" page of the Lexus website £4k
£36k - £4k = £32k
Maybe, that should have been rounded up to £33k?

TM3 SR = £41k
TM3 LR = £48.5k

It's debateable whether the comparative vehicle is the LR or SR version of the TM3.  That likely depends on the individual and their use profile.

Either way, for what are broadly "comparable" types of car, it is still a variance of £8k or more.  On that variance in capital, the Tesla may well achieve lower total cost of ownership but, for many, the extra cost-to-entry is the precluding factor.