Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

michaels

Carwow best price for an MG5 LR was 2.3k off plus the 2.5k gov grant = 26.7k

Martyn1981

EVandPV said:

Martyn1981 said:

Edit - BTW the Hyundai IONIQ (all caps for some reason) is a mid size car, quite similar in size and shape to the TM3. I have the 28kWh model, good for 130 miles, or 150 if driven gently.

That's pretty damn decent for a medium sized battery !
My 40kwh Zoe does about 160 to 180 driven gently, so not a huge difference for the extra 12kwh.

Yep, it's a nice car. Wifey joined an Ioniq group before we bought it and checked about the range, because it simply sounds too good, especially since our 24kWh Leaf could only do 70 miles. All responses told us 130 was reasonable, and also not to worry about charging it up to 100%, as the battery is actually a bit bigger than the useable figure.

Our average is 4.5miles/kWh, but we drive it in sport mode. In normal mode and avoiding 70mph speeds, I can get 5.5miles/kWh out of it by driving gently, but not slowly.

It is very aerodynamic and reasonably light, but that does mean the roofline is a bit low, and I nearly took the rear glass out once when I tried to squeeze too many toolboxes and stepladders in it ..... Doh!

shinytop

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I did post recently comparing the TM3 LR (£50k) versus the Lexus ES Premium (£32k after incentives) - both are mid-sized ("Mondeo-class") saloon cars of similar equipment specification and from "challenger" premium brands. 

Can I ask where you get that price? I just checked the Lexus site for the ES300h, with the premium upgrade for a closer match on technology, and I got £37k, which isn't a million miles away from the comparable TM3 SR+ at £41k.


Edit - BTW the Hyundai IONIQ (all caps for some reason) is a mid size car, quite similar in size and shape to the TM3. I have the 28kWh model, good for 130 miles, or 150 if driven gently.

Lexus ES Premium Edition = OTR List Price £36,555.00.
Incentive on the "offers" page of the Lexus website £4k
£36k - £4k = £32k
Maybe, that should have been rounded up to £33k?

TM3 SR = £41k
TM3 LR = £48.5k

It's debateable whether the comparative vehicle is the LR or SR version of the TM3.  That likely depends on the individual and their use profile.

Either way, for what are broadly "comparable" types of car, it is still a variance of £8k or more.  On that variance in capital, the Tesla may well achieve lower total cost of ownership but, for many, the extra cost-to-entry is the precluding factor.

The TM3 and the Lexus ES are both expensive cars.  For most people, spending £30-50k on a car is never, ever going to happen.  Unless and until EVs become much cheaper, smaller and lower spec, sales are going to hit a brick wall eventually.  We will simply run out of people rich enough to afford them and who can charge at home.  I don't have the answer but the EV industry badly needs some innovation and disruption. 

It will be even worse when EV use is taxed at the same level as petrol/diesel.  Which it will be eventually.

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

EVandPV said:

Martyn1981 said:

Edit - BTW the Hyundai IONIQ (all caps for some reason) is a mid size car, quite similar in size and shape to the TM3. I have the 28kWh model, good for 130 miles, or 150 if driven gently.

That's pretty damn decent for a medium sized battery !
My 40kwh Zoe does about 160 to 180 driven gently, so not a huge difference for the extra 12kwh.

Yep, it's a nice car. Wifey joined an Ioniq group before we bought it and checked about the range, because it simply sounds too good, especially since our 24kWh Leaf could only do 70 miles. All responses told us 130 was reasonable, and also not to worry about charging it up to 100%, as the battery is actually a bit bigger than the useable figure.

Our average is 4.5miles/kWh, but we drive it in sport mode. In normal mode and avoiding 70mph speeds, I can get 5.5miles/kWh out of it by driving gently, but not slowly.

It is very aerodynamic and reasonably light, but that does mean the roofline is a bit low, and I nearly took the rear glass out once when I tried to squeeze too many toolboxes and stepladders in it ..... Doh!

I sat in one and found the roof line at the top of the windscreen restricted my vision unless I put the seat right down so my bum was at the same height as my feet which is not how I like to drive.

Grumpy_chap

shinytop said:

The TM3 and the Lexus ES are both expensive cars.  For most people, spending £30-50k on a car is never, ever going to happen.  

I agree.

I was simply selecting those two vehicles as cars that are "comparable" to show the price difference between ICE & EV.

I am always surprised by the profile of cars on the road and the fact there is seemingly such a disproportionate mix of cars out-of-kilter with salaries.  

Scarily, even a Corsa is "from £17k" and the Corsa EV "from £26k"!  Oddly, that is the same £9k uplift for the EV as in the more premium vehicles but percentage-wise a bigger bar to entry.

QrizB

Grumpy_chap said:

Scarily, even a Corsa is "from £17k" and the Corsa EV "from £26k"!  Oddly, that is the same £9k uplift for the EV as in the more premium vehicles but percentage-wise a bigger bar to entry.

We talked about this upthread in the early summer. The PHP price for a Corsa ICE is roughly the same as a Corsa EV because the depreciation on the 3-yo EV is a much smaller % than on the ICE. If you can afford a new Corsa ICE, you can afford the EV.

shinytop

QrizB said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Scarily, even a Corsa is "from £17k" and the Corsa EV "from £26k"!  Oddly, that is the same £9k uplift for the EV as in the more premium vehicles but percentage-wise a bigger bar to entry.

We talked about this upthread in the early summer. The PHP price for a Corsa ICE is roughly the same as a Corsa EV because the depreciation on the 3-yo EV is a much smaller % than on the ICE. If you can afford a new Corsa ICE, you can afford the EV.

£26k for a Corsa though.  You can get a really nice car for that...

orrery

shinytop said:

£26k for a Corsa though.  You can get a really nice car for that...

You can, but not one that isn't leaving a trail of dead bunnies, kittens and babies asphyxiated in its wake.

Seriously though, we all know (don't we?) that EVs are on the standard development curve where the price falls with manufacturing volumes. That means they are more expensive than an ICE at present, but many people will see a lower cost of ownership over the life of the car through lower service and maintenance costs, lower tax and lower fuel costs. Someone doing the standard mileage of around 10k per year should be saving about £1k on fuel per year, assuming they can charge at home on a cheap off-peak tariff.

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

I did post recently comparing the TM3 LR (£50k) versus the Lexus ES Premium (£32k after incentives) - both are mid-sized ("Mondeo-class") saloon cars of similar equipment specification and from "challenger" premium brands. 

Can I ask where you get that price? I just checked the Lexus site for the ES300h, with the premium upgrade for a closer match on technology, and I got £37k, which isn't a million miles away from the comparable TM3 SR+ at £41k.


Edit - BTW the Hyundai IONIQ (all caps for some reason) is a mid size car, quite similar in size and shape to the TM3. I have the 28kWh model, good for 130 miles, or 150 if driven gently.

Lexus ES Premium Edition = OTR List Price £36,555.00.
Incentive on the "offers" page of the Lexus website £4k
£36k - £4k = £32k
Maybe, that should have been rounded up to £33k?

TM3 SR = £41k
TM3 LR = £48.5k

It's debateable whether the comparative vehicle is the LR or SR version of the TM3.  That likely depends on the individual and their use profile.

Either way, for what are broadly "comparable" types of car, it is still a variance of £8k or more.  On that variance in capital, the Tesla may well achieve lower total cost of ownership but, for many, the extra cost-to-entry is the precluding factor.

Cheers, so the Lexus price you gave includes a current discount by Toyota to sell their cars, which I appreciate exists, but we really need to avoid cherry picking any deals, or we'll spend forever altering comparisons as fast as deals arrive or end.

So I'd say it's a £37k v's £41k comparison, since the TM3 LR+ is already a more powerful car than the Lexus, and with ~250 miles of range, there's no need to go higher, unless you want to, and then of course we also need to select higher performance versions of the Lexi.

I'd suspect, that for customers buying these cars, most likely on a lease, or finance, the TM3 will have a lower monthly cost than the Lexus due to the fuel savings and other benefits.

So just as with the high end market, it looks like BEV's can match the medium size, luxury market too, and as other posters have shown, are already highly competitive in the lower priced markets too.

Once the cost of meeting the higher Euro standards comes in, and production of ICEV's starts to fall (pushing up unit costs), whilst BEV battery costs fall, and production numbers and cost benefits rise, it looks like BEV's will 'win' so to speak, in most categories by, or before mid decade.

Just the concern/fear of the high depreciating asset that an ICEV will shortly become, v's a BEV, will have a large impact on demand and sales in the near future, and it may already be happening.

JKenH

We do sometimes forget to take into account the opportunity cost of the extra £10k we spend. I bought my current Leaf in March 2020. As I am retired I have the time to trade in shares and over the last 18 months have enjoyed a 37% return. You could say that paying a £10k premium to own an electric car has cost me £3700 in lost income over 18 months. Had I invested it all in March 2020 in Tesla shares I could probably have made £100k. 

I enjoy my Leaf, though, so have no regrets but just wanted to point out that the man maths we use to justify buying EVs, solar panels, batteries etc rarely takes into account that opportunity cost.