Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

GreatApe

EVandPV wrote: »

Up here, we have the Charge Place Scotland network.
A £20 a year subscription gets you an RFID card and access to hundreds of rapid/destination chargers around Scotland, the vast majority of which are currently free to use.
Our local park & ride charging hub was recently upgraded to 20 charge points.
And Dundee just opened the first of 3 solar hubs with integrated battery storage.
So it can be done.

https://youtu.be/uDpblnu9xUE

That's fine and well but if BEVs are to be successful we need a couple of chargers on more or less every street in the country. This might sound a lot but it wouldn't be all that difficult since every street already has electricity going to the homes it's just a matter of hooking up.

If every street did in fact have charging points for 15p or less this makes BEVs much much more viable because they can have half the battery pack and range yet be just as effective

A model 3 lite could have 120 mile range and half the battery pack and be some £5,000 cheaper Lighter and more environmentally friendly. Less energy use since it's less heavy and less batteries needed which requires resources but also because in a battery constraint world you can build two lots model 3 lite vs one SR+

This charging infrastructure can also make plug in hybrids more efficient
Even if a plug in Hybrid had just 20 mile range that would cover all trips that are 40 mile return which would be the vast majority of car users because the average trip is only 8 miles. Likewise even if a plug in hybrid did 100 mile return 40% of it would be on electricity and that's with just 20 mile range and you can build 12 X 20 mile range hybrids for one 240 mile Tesla

EVandPV

Street charging tech is available now too ......

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/lamp-post-powered-electric-car-charging-points-arrive-london/

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

Small BEVs don't make sense because they would be competing against the cheapest ICE cars and be targeting price sensitive customers

Things like the fiat Panda, Hyundai i10, Toyota ayyo which are in the £7-10k range
Those customers won't pay £7-10k more for a BEV clone of the above as it's double the price and they are not rich folk

Things like a 3 series cost £33,000 and those types of customers may consider paying £40k for a Tesla as it's just 30% more and they are rich folk

Also the problem is these hatchback little cars aren't very aerodynamic
The model 3 is more aerodynamic than a golf for instance especially on the motorway it makes a big difference. The e golf would have motorway range of 150 miles if it was as aerodynamic as the model 3 instead it's closer to 90 miles with its boxy shape

An electric powertrain should improve a vehicle's aerodynamic efficiency - the flat floor reduces turbulence under the vehicle, not having to haul a load of air into the engine bay & then expel it is also an advantage, positive brake cooling can be reduced or eliminated as regeneration significantly reduces the work done by the brakes.

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

An electric powertrain should improve a vehicle's aerodynamic efficiency - the flat floor reduces turbulence under the vehicle, not having to haul a load of air into the engine bay & then expel it is also an advantage, positive brake cooling can be reduced or eliminated as regeneration significantly reduces the work done by the brakes.

I've seen this posted a lot and it's truths mistaken as anything significant

In theory it makes sense but in reality ICE engineers are not stupid and have made the best of all those problems you note such that an efficient ICE with hybrids and diesels getting real world <100g/km

While a model 3 is ~75g/km in a gas grid and ~150g/km in a coal grid
And an e golf is ~90g/km in a gas grid and ~180g/km in a coal grid

So yes things like needing to breath in air are a problem they really aren't a significant problem

Regen breaking is available in hybrids too which make more sense for the next 10-15 years than full BEVs and there is no manufacturing capacity limit to build hybrids because they only use 1-2KWh batteries rather than 50-100KWh batters for full BEVs with useable range so the world can build 50x more hybrids with a given number of batteries

A hybrid corrolla costs £22,000 in the UK and gets 100g/km (that's real world, manufacturer claims 74g but that's unrealistic test cycles) Vs a Tesla model 3 at around 75g/km in the UK or an e golf around 90g/km in the UK

almillar

I was comparing any full BEV to any efficient ICE and defaulted to model 3 Vs a corrolla hybrid since the model 3 is the best known EV and the corrolla is the highest selling ICE model in the history of earth

OK then, compare the Tesla to a Prius, the best selling Hybrid on earth, or the Corolla, the best selling ICE on earth, not the Corolla hybrid.

And the sums are the same. An efficient ICE gets about 100g/km
A BEV gets 75-150g/km depending on the local grid being gas or coal

Again, you're comparing nice efficient European ICE, with stinking dirty grids. Not a fair comparison. Compare the dirty grids with the dirty ICE cars that are sold in those markets. Or use the UK Grid.

Many people claim servicing will be cheaper but I don't believe the claim no one has really had EVs for that long and all the high mileage EVs with low serving have been clocked up on the motorway and the old fuel with ICE is 5-10 motorway miles is equal to 1 mile city.

Also serving isn't just about how frequently things break but about the cost.
Plus the idea that serving a ICE is so expensive is nonsense they are very affordable to service and parts are common and cheap in the new and also extensive second hand parts.

Excellent. Enjoy servicing both an EV, and an ICE, when you buy your Corolla Hybrid!! I've serviced a Zoe for 2 years which cost £160. I'm not 'claiming' anything. My Soul EV, 3 year Lease, is about £7 to include servicing. Again, not a 'claim', a thing that is actually happening.

Only the times we curtail are small I don't know the exact number off my head but it's probably about 1% of the time so you can say a UK EV is 1% wind 99% gas

Again, my point being that charging an EV means you're not always running on fossil fuels, and the situation is improving. Running an ICE means you're always 100% fossil fuel.

I understand this but I was obviously making s point that BEVs are not lower CO2 emmissions that it's mostly fake accounting

OK. I simply don't believe this. You're using less energy in the first place to move in an EV, and I think you're exaggerating all these losses. And my car does NOT run on coal no matter how often you bang on about China.

You have no idea what you are talking about
For instance are you aware coal fired stations use coal dust
They have to crush the !!!! out of it until it's s powder
Energy intensive and gives off volatile gases into the atmosphere

I'm not talking about coal, that's for sure, I thought I'd made that clear!

You're going to convince someone who buys Ford F150 monster trucks to use am e golf or a model 3?

My point is that people aren't driving Ford F-150s in the UK and you're mixing vehicles and grids up from around the entire planet, when I'm trying to focus on the UK grid and vehicles. You're purposely choosing the least efficient way an EV could be powered against the most efficient ICE cars.

Are grids getting close to marginal green? No

I said closeR. As in they are getting greener all the time. I didn't set any deadlines.

Hexane

GreatApe wrote: »

there is no manufacturing capacity limit to build hybrids because they only use 1-2KWh batteries

Some fact checking needed here. The Mitsubishi Outlander, which is the best selling PHEV in the UK, has a 13.8kWh battery.

Martyn1981

Hexane wrote: »

Some fact checking needed here. The Mitsubishi Outlander, which is the best selling PHEV in the UK, has a 13.8kWh battery.

Yes, I think we have to go back to the very earliest HEV's (such as Prius 10+ yrs ago) to find 1-2kWh batteries, certainly no PHEV's.

Effectively he's claiming that the more petrol that you use, the less restriction there would be on batt production ..... great.

GreatApe

almillar wrote: »

OK then, compare the Tesla to a Prius, the best selling Hybrid on earth, or the Corolla, the best selling ICE on earth, not the Corolla hybrid.

Fair point I'm not interested in the Prius am interested in the corolla but using the Prius it gets the exact same mileage as the hybrid corrolla so the 100g/km doesn't change

Again, you're comparing nice efficient European ICE, with stinking dirty grids. Not a fair comparison. Compare the dirty grids with the dirty ICE cars that are sold in those markets. Or use the UK Grid.

I quoted both grids and said a BEV in the UK is cleaner with a model 3 getting about 75g/km and an e golf 90g/km Vs a hybrid or efficient diesel at 100g/km.

Excellent. Enjoy servicing both an EV, and an ICE, when you buy your Corolla Hybrid!! I've serviced a Zoe for 2 years which cost £160. I'm not 'claiming' anything. My Soul EV, 3 year Lease, is about £7 to include servicing. Again, not a 'claim', a thing that is actually happening.

You make it sound like serving an ICE is going to bankrupt me. ICE serving costs are reasonable because well do I need to prove anything other than saying there are a billion ICE cars in the road?

Again, my point being that charging an EV means you're not always running on fossil fuels, and the situation is improving. Running an ICE means you're always 100% fossil fuel.

I don't think you quite understand
The grid getting more green doesn't mean cars get more green
Not until the grid is marginal green
What this means is whenever you plug in your car will be charged by a UK CCGT not by wind power because you can't just throw more wind on the turbine. There is an exception to this in that there are some periods in the UK when we have to turn the wind farms down because not enough demand. If you charge during those times then your car is 100% grid because during those times we are in effect 'throwing more wind on the turbine'

The bit you don't seem to get is that while we will indeed deploy more wind power the UK isn't expected to be marginal green in any significant number of hours anytime over the next decade.
Just to point out that come 2024 we will be roughly in the same situation as today because while we will deploy more wind power we are also closing half the nukes.

OK. I simply don't believe this. You're using less energy in the first place to move in an EV, and I think you're exaggerating all these losses. And my car does NOT run on coal no matter how often you bang on about China.

I'll do a thread with the numbers and calculations for you to check

I'm not talking about coal, that's for sure, I thought I'd made that clear!

That's fine I posted the numbers for coal and gas use whichever one applies to you

My point is that people aren't driving Ford F-150s in the UK and you're mixing vehicles and grids up from around the entire planet, when I'm trying to focus on the UK grid and vehicles. You're purposely choosing the least efficient way an EV could be powered against the most efficient ICE cars.

How much co2/km do you propose a typical BEV emmits in the uk?.[/QUOTE]

GreatApe

Hexane wrote: »

Some fact checking needed here. The Mitsubishi Outlander, which is the best selling PHEV in the UK, has a 13.8kWh battery.

Read my post again the bit you quoted it said hybrid not plug in hybrid

A hybrid 2020 Prius/Corolla has a 1.3KWh battery
By comparison a SR+ model 3 Tesla is 55KWh and a long range model 3 is 75KWh

So you can build 42-58 hybrids with the same quantity of batteries as one model 3 Tesla

ABrass

EV batteries scale down nicely whilst petrol engines will always have a hard floor cost because of the emission control hardware.

In a few years the prices will flip as the more stringent rules drive the costs up whilst the lowering EV costs push them down. Plus why invest in a dead end platform? Half the problem with EVs is the low numbers they're built in. The same applies to small cars, if you can't punch them out by the 100 of thousands they aren't worth developing.