The Alternative Green Energy Thread

JKenH

1961Nick said:

ABrass said:

We've done the hydrogen thing to death, but in short: optimistic assumptions leave hydrogen as expensive even when at scale and it needs a critical mass up front to work at all.

Hydrogen probably does have a place, but that place isn't vehicles or piped to the home.

The obvious way to distribute hydrogen energy is through the existing electricity grid.

The sensible place to generate & burn hydrogen is at decommissioned coal fired power stations as all the distribution infrastructure is already in place.

Keadby would be an excellent place to start. The old coal station has gone, it is the site of the largest onshore wind farm in the UK and there is already a proposal to blend hydrogen into the plant.

QrizB

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

ABrass said:

We've done the hydrogen thing to death, but in short: optimistic assumptions leave hydrogen as expensive even when at scale and it needs a critical mass up front to work at all.

Hydrogen probably does have a place, but that place isn't vehicles or piped to the home.

The obvious way to distribute hydrogen energy is through the existing electricity grid.

The sensible place to generate & burn hydrogen is at decommissioned coal fired power stations as all the distribution infrastructure is already in place.

Keadby would be an excellent place to start. The old coal station has gone, it is the site of the largest onshore wind farm in the UK and there is already a proposal to blend hydrogen into the plant.

You should add decommissioned nuclear sites to the list, for the same reasons. Wylfa, Dungeness, Oldbury etc.

JKenH

Sir Keir Starmer has sensibly distanced himself from Just Stop Oil adopting a pragmatic approach to transition to Net Zero. I can’t access the Times coverage and couldn’t post a link from the Guardian as I couldn’t find one, so here is (part of) the Telegraph’s coverage. 

Just Stop Oil demands 'contemptible', says Sir Keir Starmer 

Just Stop Oil’s message to turn off the taps in the North Sea is “contemptible”, Sir Keir Starmer has said.

Writing in The Times, he sought to distance himself from Just Stop Oil as the Tories attack Labour for accepting £1.5 million donationsfrom the campaign group’s backer Dale Vince.

Sir Keir said he would only ban the granting of new licences to explore oil and gas fields in the North Sea as he seeks to give businesses certainty.

Sir Keir added: “The likes of Just Stop Oil want us to simply turn off the taps in the North Sea, creating the same chaos for working people that they do on our roads. It’s contemptible.

“So is saying you want clean energy as we move away from fossil fuels and then opposing nuclear power, even though it is vital to any viable plan to lower energy bills and deliver energy security for working people.”

He said his party will work with the oil and gas sector to secure a managed transition to net zero, and that it would also “crowd in investment in future energy production in the North Sea alongside newer technologies like carbon capture and storage and hydrogen”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/08/06/just-stop-oil-demands-contemptible-says-keir-starmer/

michaels

When questioned about cake, the leader of the opposition said his party's position was in favour not only of having it but also  simultaneously of eating it.....

JKenH

Good article explaining why electricity is priced as it is in the UK. In other European countries it is hydro or imports which determine the price rather than gas. 

If the UK has lots of renewables, why do electricity prices follow gas prices?

https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electricity-pricing

JKenH

More pain on the way.

Gas prices leap 18pc on supply disruption fears 

European gas prices have surged by 18pc amid the threat of strike action by workers in Australia that could disrupt global supplies.

Energy markets have been on edge since last week when it emerged that staff at key gas facilities in Australia were considering going on strike. 

Potential strikes in Australia at Woodside and a Chevron facility could interrupt up to 10pc of the global supply of LNG, Bloomberg reported. 

Europe typically rarely buys Australian natural gas, but any disruption to global supplies would have a knock on effect. Futures for the month ahead in Europe climbed by 18pc on Tuesday, while UK contracts jumped by more than 15pc.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/15/ftse-100-market-news-wage-growth-inflation-bank-england/

markin

Looking at energydashboard 4 days in a row the Imports cut in half just as we really needed them at the 8pm peak, 7GW to around 2-3GW The Gas is still needed as the back up, And so the time shifted peaks isn't really working well.


Has any wind company said they don't want to be paid the marginal cost? it could mess up their profit forecasts and could put a complete holt to new builds. Would CDF's suddenly become a 1 way street always paying out and never paying back into the fund?

JKenH

I was just looking at the very low CO2 emissions figures (looked at in g/kWh terms, not overall, throughout this post) for the last 3 months on the Electric Insights website and compared them with previous 9 years. There has been a significant increase in the % of our electricity generated from wind/solar but is this the reason for the fall in emissions? 

What I noticed was that the correlation between demand and emissions from 2017 appeared stronger than the inverse correlation between emissions and wind/solar generation. Demand this summer has been particularly low even compared to 2020 and the emissions significantly lower. In 2022 although the % generated from wind and solar rose significantly, emissions (in g/kWh terms) also rose as demand was higher. 

There were significant reductions in emissions prior to 2017 but these I suspect were due to the switch from coal to gas but since 2917 the rate of improvement has slowed (until the last 3 months). What concerns me, is that despite our increasing the proportion of our generation from wind and solar in the future, if overall demand rises (from EVs and Heat pumps) will we may see generation CO2 emissions rise, not just overall but in g/kWh terms. We have picked the low hanging fruit of electricity generation CO2 savings and subsequent Gainsborough gains in reducing CO2 may be marginal.

Unfortunately I don’t have the app on my iPad to convert these statistics into a graph. 

I am not expecting everyone to agree with this analysis but thought I would put my musings out there. 

Edit: swapped the reference to inverse over to demand rather than wind/solar as it makes more sense numerically.
Edit: Gainsborough replaced with gains (one of my typing shortcuts)

EricMears

JKenH said:

I was just looking at the very low CO2 emissions figures (looked at in g/kWh terms, not overall throughout this post) for the last 3 months on the Electric Insights website and compared them with previous 9 years. There has been a significant increase in the % of our electricity generated from wind/solar but is this the reason for the fall in emissions? 

What I noticed was that the inverse correlation between demand and emissions from 2017 appeared stronger than the correlation between emissions and wind/solar generation. Demand this summer has been particularly low even compared to 2020 and the emissions significantly lower. In 2022 although the % generated from wind and solar rose significantly, emissions (in g/kWh terms) also rose as demand was higher. 

Haven't the faintest idea of what sort of scale it might be on,  but there must have been some apparent 'demand reduction' resulting from increased self-generation &/or local storage.

JKenH

EricMears said:

JKenH said:

I was just looking at the very low CO2 emissions figures (looked at in g/kWh terms, not overall throughout this post) for the last 3 months on the Electric Insights website and compared them with previous 9 years. There has been a significant increase in the % of our electricity generated from wind/solar but is this the reason for the fall in emissions? 

What I noticed was that the inverse correlation between demand and emissions from 2017 appeared stronger than the correlation between emissions and wind/solar generation. Demand this summer has been particularly low even compared to 2020 and the emissions significantly lower. In 2022 although the % generated from wind and solar rose significantly, emissions (in g/kWh terms) also rose as demand was higher. 

Haven't the faintest idea of what sort of scale it might be on,  but there must have been some apparent 'demand reduction' resulting from increased self-generation &/or local storage.

The Drax figures don’t make any allowance for embedded solar - it will just appear as reduced demand so the increased take up of domestic solar may be making a difference. I have exported far more of my solar PV in the last 3 months than in previous years (84% in June) due to the attractive Flux export tariffs but I would be (pleasantly) surprised if that type of behaviour from Octopus customers was making a difference. It could though be smoothing the demand curve as I like others am now avoiding consumption wherever possible in the 4-7pm period. High electricity prices may have reduced overall demand as well.