The Alternative Green Energy Thread

JKenH

Limitless ‘white’ hydrogen under our feet may soon shatter all energy assumptions

We are suddenly waking up to the very real possibility that vast reserves of natural hydrogen lie under our feet and can plausibly be extracted at costs that blow away the competition, ultimately undercutting methane on pure price. 

Scientists have long argued that pockets of exploitable geological hydrogen are more abundant than hitherto supposed. 

The US Geological Survey concluded in April that there is probably enough accessible hydrogen in the earth’s subsurface to meet total global demand for “hundreds of years”.

Hydrogen has a little understood and incalculable advantage over fossil fuels. 

“The bore hole can theoretically produce for ever, just like geothermal. You don’t have to keep redrilling, and you don’t have the decline curve of oil and gas. That changes the economics of the project drastically,” Dr Zgonnik said.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/07/13/white-hydrogen-disrupt-global-energy-net-zero/

JKenH

It seems like when we have excess RE generation we can’t even give it away to our neighbours. Isn’t the idea of interconnectors that we can sell excess energy abroad. Do we ever get paid by our European neighbours to take their surplus generation?

Grid paying more to dump excess energy into other countries.

Recently it has been noticed that the National Grid ESO has been paying high amounts to dispose of energy in neighbouring EU countries. This raises concerns over energy management from the grid as the ESO has spent up to £550/MWh to dispose of excess power into other European countries.

https://www.resolveenergy.co.uk/blog/article/grid-paying-more-to-dump-excess-energy-into-other-countries

Edit: more on this story

UK ‘power dumping’ raises concerns over energy management

Mr Hewitt told Energy Live News: “The reason National Grid ESO gave yesterday (Monday 29th May) was that it was an energy action. This means they had too much power and needed to reduce generation and interconnector imports.

“They couldn’t turn off power stations because they needed them on to provide inertia to the system so this left the interconnectors as their only option. To change the output of interconnectors, they trade with counterparties that have access to the intraday markets on the other side of the interconnector. These traders quote prices that National Grid ESO then accepts to change the output of the interconnectors.

“This kind of high price reversal event is likely to occur on any sunny weekends this summer. As a response to the high energy prices last year, industrial and domestic consumers in Great Britain, Belgium, the Netherlands and France have responded by installing solar panels; this has resulted in a big increase in solar generation on sunny days.

“Electricity system operators in these countries need to investigate how to create curtailment products to encourage consumers to stop generation during these periods, otherwise the SOs will be spending a lot of money on balancing the markets on these kind of days.

https://www.energylivenews.com/2023/05/31/uk-power-dumping-raises-concerns-over-energy-management/

paul991

This morning ukis burning Gas whilst prices are negetive 

Exiled_Tyke

This article looks like a gross simplification of a complex issue which could have more to do with lack of flexibility in the supply chain, poor grid infrastructure and lack of progress on storage.  Other countries have far more solar capacity than the UK yet this article seeks to blame mismanagement of the grid on what makes a small fraction (at the best of times) on domestic PV. 

JKenH

Exiled_Tyke said:

This article looks like a gross simplification of a complex issue which could have more to do with lack of flexibility in the supply chain, poor grid infrastructure and lack of progress on storage.  Other countries have far more solar capacity than the UK yet this article seeks to blame mismanagement of the grid on what makes a small fraction (at the best of times) on domestic PV. 

It is, indeed, a complex issue and we need a holistic approach to achieve a balanced grid so that there are neither shortages or excess supply. By all means export the excess if there is a market for it but to produce something and have to pay to get rid of it highlights how far we are from achieving this happy state. 

I am aware from previous posts you recognise the urgent need for storage but elsewhere the clarion call is for more and more renewable generation. Without storage that only adds to the problem. 

You correctly mention poor grid infrastructure which is needed to get all our wind generation to the right place but this report relates to excess solar on sunny weekends which isn’t a grid problem, more a lack of storage/inertia. If we have to keep the thermal plants running to take over once the sun goes down then the high solar generation on these sunny low demand days has little value and this is what the market is saying. The more solar we add the worse it becomes. As the article says, the problem arose because of the recent expansion of solar not only here in the UK but also in the markets we might have hoped would take the excess. Storage of 4 hours duration would go along way to solving this problem but as long as there are CfD contracts in place the investment will go into new generation. By all means have more solar farms but the consents for these should also be dependent on them providing commensurate storage to avoid these peaks and troughs. 

thevilla

South Australia seems to be showing the way to 100% renewables without relying on fossil inertia.  Obviously it's a smaller grid but technically has similar issues to ours.

Many articles searchable on Google.

JKenH

Indeed, and don’t they also have some of the biggest battery storage projects. 

Exiled_Tyke

thevilla said:

South Australia seems to be showing the way to 100% renewables without relying on fossil inertia.  Obviously it's a smaller grid but technically has similar issues to ours.

Many articles searchable on Google.

Yep and that's the issue I was trying to raise. Don't blame it on solar but on the getting everything else around it sorted.   

JKenH

Exiled_Tyke said:

thevilla said:

South Australia seems to be showing the way to 100% renewables without relying on fossil inertia.  Obviously it's a smaller grid but technically has similar issues to ours.

Many articles searchable on Google.

Yep and that's the issue I was trying to raise. Don't blame it on solar but on the getting everything else around it sorted.   

Yes, that’s where the mismanagement comes in.

QrizB

Mr Hewitt told Energy Live News: “The reason National Grid ESO gave yesterday (Monday 29th May) was that it was an energy action. This means they had too much power and needed to reduce generation and interconnector imports.

I've been wondering about this quote from Mr Hewitt.

Checking Nordpool, I can't get hourly prices for the 29th of May (it's too long ago) but can access the average daily price. It was £76.93 a MWh.

From EnergyStats I see that the lowest Agile price on the Monday 29th of May was 6.31p/kWh. That's only fractionally lower than the day before (7.72p/kWh) and higher than the day before that (when it hit 0p).

This suggests to me that the problem wasn't a wholesale surplus of electricity in the UK (or a surplus of wholesale electricity) but a localised problem in one region where generation exceeded the ability of the grid to move it around to places where it was in more demand. This would be similar to the occasion last summer when NG ESO had to buy electricity from the continent at a huge cost per MWh to make up for a shortfall in part of the southeast.

Agile prices were close to, or below, zero from midnight until 4pm today. It will be interesting to see if NG ESO had to pay France to take it off our hands.